We have no weapons... you can't possibly!.... Options

[Ghostrider]

One of the biggest challenges for the Skyhook campaign was to accurately depict Alderaan, as the obvious question of ‘How do you prevent a planet with no weapons from being immediately overrun by Imperial forces?’ was a bit of an obstacle to the development process.

Whatever answer arose had to fit within 3 major guidelines;
1. The solution must fit the Canon
2. Defending forces must be believable and portray a realism similar to other worlds
3. Alderaan must be sufficiently protected from major Imperial raids and still be balanced in the Mod for sensible campaigning

In the original campaign map, Alderaan was directly connected to the Imperial Fleet over Kashyyyk, giving a major challenge to point no 3. This was fairly easily fixed with the addition of buffer worlds between Alderaan and Kashyyyk, and to date Kattada has been added as a minor Rebel world, and there is the possibility of yet more neutral worlds being added, thereby delaying the contact between these two key locations.

Basic research provided good background material to expand point no 2. Alderaan is a popular trading loction, and would attract a sizeable independent trading fleet, which naturally would require at least a basic planetary defence force to keep order and ensure a flourishing trading economy. Furthermore, the planet is home to the Alderaan Royal Engineers, with a history of starship production dating back 30,000 years to the start of the Old Republic. While these shipwrights designed such craft as the Thranta-class War Cruiser and the Alderaanian War Frigate, the majority of these ships were scrapped when Alderaan demilitarised after the Clone Wars. Despite this political maneuver, Alderaan retained one of the best defensive forces in the Empire, but of what?

Demilitarised ships can only mean one thing – all lethal weaponry has been removed and replaced with ion cannon. While you can’t kill with an ion cannon, it forms the basis for a superb defence system. With no more Thranta’s we have assumed that the Royal Engineers have taken damaged Clone-Wars stock and refurbished/refitted with ion cannon armaments, giving a basic defense fleet of over 150 elite Delta-7 Aethersprite Interceptors; supported by half a dozen ion cannon armed DP-10 Gunships, whose warheads have been swapped out for plasma torpedoes instead of the standard concussion missile systems.

In addition, the Rebel Alliance has also secretly negotiated the purchase of merchant stocks from the bankrupt Gallofree Yards, including the perfect craft for a defensive fleet – the Gozanti Cruiser.

Non-lethal Gozanti Cruisers at work



This heavily armed modified transport was originally designed to defend merchant vessels from piracy and part of the design specification required slow sublight speeds to make it useless for raids and therefore prevent it being used by the pirates themselves. In addition, its configuration often tricks pirates into believing it is a nice fat merchant, instead of an armed cruiser! Although the original armaments included multiple laser and quad laser cannons, conversion of these to ion cannon has not reduced its efficiency and this is a deadly opponent to all but the best starfighter pilots. If that was not enough, the standard proton torpedo system has been upgraded to take magna-pulse warheads.

Although highly effective against pirates and other small craft, the Gozanti cruisers are no match for heavier warships. To handle this threat, Alderaan maintains several dozen ARC-170 bombers, also sporting ion cannons and magna-pulse armaments, to swiftly immobilise any Star Destroyer captain foolish enough to threaten Alderaan’s peaceful existence. A quartet of converted Carrack Light Cruisers provide long range supporting turbo-ion fire.

Star Destroyer in trouble



The covert presence of pro-Alliance and independent freighter pilots, some of which are very well armed, add a final sting in Alderaan’s tail, and these can easily cause heavy hull damage to any cruiser that has been immobilised with a magna-pulse strike.

Finally, with Bail Organa’s Tantive IV and Raymus Antilles’ Sundered Heart in orbit, and with the Royal Engineers providing superb construction yards in support, Alderaan can easily provide excellent intelligence gathering activities to Rebel Commanders, and with a little time, this defensive fleet could be augmented with traditional warships to provide the Alliance with a formidable strike force.

The Alderaanian fleet on a strike mission

[Tropical Bob]

My jaw is dropping at the same time as my twitching eye right now.

Too bad Alderaan's ion cannons can do nothing to prevent the Death Star from putting the planet in its canonical place. Bwaha.

[feld]

They could always call in the Another Chance...

[Phoenix Rising]

True, but then I'd have to add another model . Seriously though, isn't a frigate too small to fit that many weapons? Even if it just held personal weapons, it seems like Alderaan never had many of them to begin with - and we're talking about a planet that was attacked by the CIS during the Clone Wars.

[BansheeMalthus]

Whatever answer arose had to fit within 3 major guidelines;
1. The solution must fit the Canon
2. Defending forces must be believable and portray a realism similar to other worlds
3. Alderaan must be sufficiently protected from major Imperial raids and still be balanced in the Mod for sensible campaigning

Well as I remember, Alderaan was never in OPEN rebellion against the Empire. That being said, they did not like the empire and funneled goods and services to the rebel scum. So to portray it within the guidelines above what about : Alderaan is an Imperial world, but provides little to no income to the Empire, No buildable Base structures for the Empire, and only a 2 unit(light armor and 1 squad of infntry) I like what you have prposed, but I feel that it doesnt fit Canon as well as it could. After the Clone wars, the gave up their weapons and depended on the empire for policing duties(being so close to the Core, I suspect Imp patrols were looking for any excuse to "pacify" Alderaanian intrests. I don't know if this is even a workable solution, much less better, but I wanted to add my 2 cents.

[Ghostrider]

I like what you have proposed, but I feel that it doesnt fit Canon as well as it could. After the Clone wars, the gave up their weapons and depended on the empire for policing duties(being so close to the Core, I suspect Imp patrols were looking for any excuse to "pacify" Alderaanian intrests. I don't know if this is even a workable solution, much less better, but I wanted to add my 2 cents.

I'm not sure that you are right about the Imp Patrols. Alderaan was self policeing during CW, and I can't see it asking the Emperor for help, considering they opposed the Military Creation Act. Alderaan was pretty independent.

Immediately after the formation of the Galactic Empire, Alderaan was wracked by anti-Imperial protests, mainly from alien refugees who were now forced to pay an exorbitant tax to return home. Alderaan eventually became a safe haven for rebellious elements who wished to fight the growing oppression of the Empire, which helped bring on the planet's very downfall.

When Bail Organa, Garm Bel Iblis, and Mon Mothma formally created the Rebel Alliance, many Alderaanians volunteered their resources and lives, despite the still fresh memories of the Clone Wars. Many of the early warriors of the Alliance, and subsequently, many of its leaders and officers, were Alderaanian.

Based on this, can't see the Imperials having a base here! - to quote Tarkin in ANH:

"The defense system on Alderaan, despite the Senators protestations to the contrary, were as strong as any in the Empire."

I think we got it fairly close. Let me know what we missed!

This post has been edited by Ghostrider: Jan 12 2010, 09:04 AM

[Tropical Bob]

The only thing I might be able to think of to make it more canonical would be some sort of 'leader persuasion'. Like, if it would be possible, start the planet out as Pirate, and if Mon Mothma arrives, the planet and all its defenses are turned over to the Rebels, as well as a cash boost of sorts. That would also give the Imperials a chance to race to the planet, before it fully supports the Rebels, and make an example of any active anti-Imperial elements.

Or perhaps time limits for certain on-the-fence worlds, like mentioned above. If the Imperials get there first, and subjugate it, then the Rebels don't get an easy planet. Otherwise, if the time runs out, the planet goes openly Rebel.

This post has been edited by Tropical Bob: Jan 12 2010, 11:12 AM

[feld]

Recent material (particularly the Force Unleashed and some of the RPG campaign guides) hints that Bail Organa was far from a pacifist. He was pretty vocal about formenting armed Rebellion in TFU cutscenes, A.C. Crispin's Han Solo novels indicate that Bria Tharen was instrumental in convincing Bail to reject pacifism, and (let's face it) he had his daughter taught to shoot rather well. I think that's enough canon justification to indicate that Alderaan at least had some sort of defensive fleet.

<break> <break>
Ghost - I am worried about that Fleet leaving under AI control and going halfway across the galaxy. Your post didn't mention Ion cannon and magpulse armed Golan III space guns or large numbers of ground based ion cannon....

v/r
feld

[Ghostrider]

Ghost - I am worried about that Fleet leaving under AI control and going halfway across the galaxy. Your post didn't mention Ion cannon and magpulse armed Golan III space guns or large numbers of ground based ion cannon....

feld

Don't worry about AI on the rampage. As an offensive force, this fleet sucks. It will batter down shields on pretty much anything with amazing speed... but it can only stun warships - it can't blow them up.
There are no Mag-pulse armed Golans. The Mag-pulse effects are from the Gozantis and ARC-170's only. It's pretty cool to mag pulse an enemy XQ5 platform though. You just can't kill it very easily with the current fleet!

[feld]

Ghost - I am worried about that Fleet leaving under AI control and going halfway across the galaxy. Your post didn't mention Ion cannon and magpulse armed Golan III space guns or large numbers of ground based ion cannon....

feld

Don't worry about AI on the rampage. As an offensive force, this fleet sucks. It will batter down shields on pretty much anything with amazing speed... but it can only stun warships - it can't blow them up.
There are no Mag-pulse armed Golans. The Mag-pulse effects are from the Gozantis and ARC-170's only. It's pretty cool to mag pulse an enemy XQ5 platform though. You just can't kill it very easily with the current fleet!

I'm being unclear. The problem is that the AI is too stupid to know that. It will take that defense fleet and move it all over the map.


v/r
feld

[Ghostrider]

I'm being unclear. The problem is that the AI is too stupid to know that. It will take that defense fleet and move it all over the map.

No - I understood you - mostly. I thought you were concerned that the fleet might cause lots of damage. It won't on it's own.

If you are playing as the Empire and the Alderaan fleet attacks you, you might lose your shields, but in the end you will win cos this fleet can't do much hull damage, while you can.
However, if this fleet gets mixed with standard units, it could cause a real headache. You just need to consider that in your strategy as the Imperial player, possibly with a pre-emptive strike!

If the AI moves this fleet all over the map, autoresolve won't give a damn whether the fleet uses ions or lasers. It just adds up the damage and goes from there.

Note for PR - have we/do we want to lower the auto-resolve values on the Non-Lethal variants so they take heavier casualties in auto-resolve?

This post has been edited by Ghostrider: Jan 12 2010, 06:35 PM

[BansheeMalthus]

Alright, after some extensive reading, I will withdraw my objections, although I still think, IMO, that the fleet seems a little much. Heavy Planet defences yes, but a mobile fleet? I dunno, it just seems strange, although they did have the opourtunity to call back their weps and ships, they never got the chance, so maybe a "fleet" ( a warp in garrison maybe?) is legit.

[Phoenix Rising]

Well as I remember, Alderaan was never in OPEN rebellion against the Empire.

You're assuming that's what it means for a planet to be Rebel. As I pointed out in a few threads that feld started on the topic, EaW is really bad at simulating a rebellion and there's not much we can do about it. If we just give the Alliance held worlds, they wouldn't control very much at all. Basing it on allegiance gives us some design flexibility so the campaign isn't totally unbalanced and awful. Besides, the Alderaanian Resistance was part of the Corellian Treaty... and I don't think they were all from Delaya.

I'm being unclear. The problem is that the AI is too stupid to know that. It will take that defense fleet and move it all over the map.

We'll deal with this as necessary after the AI changes are in effect. Technically though, the only deterrent from doing so would be the hyperdrive modifier, since the player is in absolute control of the faction. In other words, there's no real reason why it must stay at Alderaan. You're saying it's not a viable fleet though. I can't really speculate on what the AI would do with it, but it is possible to mix with Ralltiir's forces as soon as the campaign begins.

[feld]

You're saying it's not a viable fleet though. I can't really speculate on what the AI would do with it, but it is possible to mix with Ralltiir's forces as soon as the campaign begins.

Didn't mean to imply that. If I did I mispoke. I can easily see it as being a big pain of a fleet, actually. I hate ion cannon.

v/r
feld

[Phoenix Rising]

No, I made that implication. I took the screenshots... it's not a viable fleet on its own, especially against anything under 2:1 shields-to-hull. But that's kind of the point: it's a defense fleet pressed into military service. Until it can be supplemented, it's vulnerable. Fortunately, Alderaan does not start threatened, so the pressure's on the Empire to do something about it - and Corulag or Kashyyyk hardly have forces to spare at the start. Even so, I wouldn't worry too much about it as an Imperial: with poor hyperdrive ratings, Alderaan's forces are best used defensively, as intended.

This post has been edited by Phoenix Rising: Jan 13 2010, 09:29 PM

[evilbobthebob]

As I pointed out in a few threads that feld started on the topic, EaW is really bad at simulating a rebellion and there's not much we can do about it.

Well, how about using the Consortium's corruption options to better simulate rebellion? By changing the graphics of a lot of them, and only using specific types, they could be quite useful for the rebellion. For example, the corruption option that was Slavery could become some form of smuggling so that the rebels help natives escape, so they can join the rebellion. The ones where the local militia refuse to help the planetary owner could be useful as well. I know the corruption options tend to rely on each other for support, but by just changing their descriptions so they aren't made out to be necessarily immoral, the rebellion can afford to only own a few planets, and have "allegiance" of as many other worlds as they like. Obviously the defiler would have to be replaced and renamed...perhaps some of the major diplomatic heroes could be given defiler special abilities? I'm not sure how much of this is possible, and it would probably mean a lot of recoding. But it might help.

[Phoenix Rising]

That's one option, yes. Personally, I wouldn't worry about the coding so much as the design - wasn't the Consortium really unbalanced? Vanilla let you use just a single planet as a production center for the entire galaxy, which is something I've tried to get rid of in PR. So you'd probably have to concede any semblance of balance there, not to mention in advantages, which we've also made into a bigger deal. The best way that could still work is if the Rebellion had a bunch of "cheat" units like the ZC, but they really don't. The main problem, though, is our timeline: we're using the same faction for the Alliance and New Republic, and corruption-style insurgency doesn't make much sense for the latter. It could work really well in a mod with a narrow, Rebellion-era scope or one that differentiates the Rebel Alliance from the New Republic, but for us, it's probably best to just accept the limitations as they stand.

[Guest_Bane_*]

It's simpler than you make it sound. To make one have the abilities and the other not, you could simply add faux heroes that are really just units like Defilers to one campaign and not the other(s), so that you can control which version has them.

[Phoenix Rising]

Aren't controlled planets automatically corrupted?

[Kitkun]

Yeah. Dunno if that's changeable.
Was an interesting and actually good concept, if they'd done any sort of balance.

This post has been edited by Kitkun: Feb 13 2010, 03:43 AM