15 replies to this topic

[Nazgûl]

I know we have discussed this before (we, as in me and some of the forum members), but I can't remember where and I still wonder if there is a chance I can improve it. When looking at my Great Goblin model, it has proven to be the one that is obviously the hardest to rig without any major distortions in anims. I suppose this is due to the fact that it was the first full body model I made, and I made it from scratch, as in not using an exported W3D model upon which I sculpt and thus keep the proportions. Great Goblin has been rigged several times, by a number of experienced modelers such as Ridder Geel, Ealendril and now Valheru - but it's still not as good as the other rigs. If we compare to my Yazneg model (rigged by Ealendril) and Fimbul (rigged by Valheru), they outshine Great Goblin by far in terms of fluid movements without major polygon errors, and the only big difference is that I sculpted those models using the generic orc mesh from vanilla game...

 

So, I guess it's safe to say that the proportions of the model compared to the SKL it's suppsed to be rigged to, is definitely crucial to the outcome of the anims. However, when it comes to the resolution of the model, as in polycount and the number of vertexes that should be binded to the appropriate bone of the skeleton - how much does that affect the same topic? Some say that higher resolution increases level of difficulty to rig, but also vastly improves animations (like in CGI movies), and the other way around. But others seem to believe that higher poly count only increases risk of binding errors and makes it a whole lot harder to rig all parts of the model to the best corresponding bone. So what goes? And do you think the riggers would succeed better if the Great Goblin was remodeled into something closer to for instance the generic troll, than this?

In short, is the proportions all of the problem, or just some of it and how important (good or bad) is the resolution (polycount)?

Edited by Nazgûl, 26 April 2015 - 10:18 PM.

[Ridder Geel]

It's a combination of both, proportions being the most important one, obviously.

But having way too many polies works badly at the moment when your model is not exactly the correct proportions, then those small differences will become more obvious.

[Lauri]

You can use secondary binding to great effect with more polies. There's a limit, of course, but the Great Goblin isn't really a problem in that sense. Your problem is proportions. You might need to move the head more forward, and probably more importantly align the arms.

 

Simply put, proportion is key. What the model looks like unanimated means nothing, and with the Great Goblin you really do need custom animations to have him behave the way you really want. As long as you don't have an animator for that project, you'll have to sacrifice something to make it work smooth on your limited options.

[Nazgûl]

Someone offered to make custom anims for him, but that has been an ongoing (or idle) project for quite some time now (a year or so), and quite frankly, I doubt that anyone could actually muster the effort to create a whole set of anims for this character without simply loosing motivation someone along the line... The CaH Hill Troll anims are pretty fitting for him, except the running anim, but the problem is the distortions where for instance his right leg is moved outside his hip in attacks and his hands are twisted from his arms, etc. No MAJOR stuff, but definitely noticable - at least in the viewer. In game, not as apparent off course. But still - it would be cool to polish that.

[Valheru]

If you end up remodelling him I'm happy to rig it for you dude.

[NewErr]

There is no need to make a full set of anims from scratch just to edit those that have a very noticeable bug.

Edited by Valaquenta10, 28 April 2015 - 09:30 AM.

[Nazgûl]

Thanks Valheru  If I do that, I will go for the regular troll SKL...

 

Vala: I think the person he offered to do this meant making new anims (at least some), as he pointed out he wanted to make his fat wobble and such.
How do you edit anims? Is it possible to just move default positions of bones but still keep the way they move? Can you add more bones to existing skeletons?

[Ridder Geel]

Adding more bones means you would need to reexport every animation, so you'd need to be able to import them for starters

[Lauri]

It's mostly tedious.

[Kwen]

You cannot simply just move the location of bones. Normally all movement of the bones should be handled with rotations since the bones represent joints. (Although EA does break this rule from time to time)

Edited by Kwen, 29 April 2015 - 03:14 PM.

[Mathijs]

For this model the only thing that will fix animation issues (including custom animations which will likely still look off due to the somewhat random distribution of vertices) is to do the following:

1. Align the arms and legs with those of the Troll model.
2. Redistribute/weld/optimize polies on the critical spots (arms and hip, according to you) to closely resemble those on the troll. 

[Nazgûl]

Okay, so you mean reduce the polycount and try to match the distribution of the troll?

When you rig vertices of a high poly model... is it a matter of highlighting a group of polies and rig them to a bone, or do you have to work on each vertice one at a time?

[Kwen]

Mathijs isn't referring to reducing the poly count further as a whole, only in the critical locations. Areas that experience drastic movement such as the armpit area and lower torso. That way stretching doesn't look so distinct.

And yes you can select groups of vertices to link to bones as oppose to one at a time. That would be a nightmare!

[Nazgûl]

Ah, so lower polycount in joint areas reduce risk of distortions? I thought it was the other way around 

 

Okay, well that's good. When I distribute the vertices, I do it one by one. Quite tedious indeed =/

[Mathijs]

Not simply lower, but have the polies and general mesh shape (of these key areas) mirror those of the model the skeleton was originally designed for.

[Nazgûl]

Ok thanks, I'll see what I can do