61 replies to this topic

[Quitch]

It's for you to tell me what can and can't be done, I'm not going to second guess that. If something I suggest can't be done then fair enough, but I know that IF THEN can be pushed a long long way, it's all a matter how how fast scripts are processed by the game and at what point they impact on the CPU.

[LarkinVB]

Please do me a favor and concentrate your posts in a single 'Quitch suggestion thread'. Its hard for me to read the rest otherwise. I fully agree to 90% of what you said about AI improvements and I'm aware of 90%. I know the game. Guess why I had long discussions with Thudo about turrets ? Guess why my last advice before releasing v1.2 was : No rangers, please !

What I don't like is your style. I did work of my arse for the AI and don't want to hear about all of what is NOT working. I can make you a 4 page list of what is NOT working but should be in. So what ?

If you are so clever why don't you start your editor and begin scripting ?

[oozish]

Man, the Eldar are tough! Just played blood river *(larkin latest) and got my butt handily handed to me; but eldar were tough on that map before, now unstoppable I'm gonna have to try different rushes and see if I can stop them because their ranged destruction makes a mockery of my base defenses and even cc squads if I go the tech route.

an early rush strat might be my only hope. So far so good Larkin, I haven't seen any mindless dancing and of course haven't tested vs. orks or SM so I can't judge the grenade results yet.

[Quitch]

Please do me a favor and concentrate your posts in a single 'Quitch suggestion thread'. Its hard for me to read the rest otherwise. I fully agree to 90% of what you said about AI improvements and I'm aware of 90%. I know the game. Guess why I had long discussions with Thudo about turrets ? Guess why my last advice before releasing v1.2 was : No rangers, please !

What I don't like is your style. I did work of my arse for the AI and don't want to hear about all of what is NOT working. I can make you a 4 page list of what is NOT working but should be in. So what ?

If you are so clever why don't you start your editor and begin scripting ?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

For the same reason you won't see another AI project emerge for vanilla DoW: because this one exists.

[oozish]

fs,,ooi[poi-09=-0596@@...Larkin

I HATE ELDAR! Dang, I can't make any headway vs. them. I've tried the scout rush, I've tried the super tech route. ON blood river, I can't beat those bastards. Gotta take a break, I'm about to split my keyboard in two. This is using Larkin the latest larkin super code!

Looks to me like Larkin has outdone himself.

Edited by oozish, 29 July 2005 - 11:35 PM.

[thudo]

heheh.. Larkin leaking his code to the betateam! heheh.. Just got home <goes to play new code>..

So.. oozish.. what is different compared to v1.2 especially for Eldar?

[oozish]

In a nutshell they are just harder...I mean I haven't been able to deter them, and I've lost 4/4 games vs them trying different strats. Eldar are so difficult because they are so effective at range, their plasma kills so fast..it mows down everything; i'VE had some luck trying to tie them up in cc....but they have too many squads and effectively use their range even when my squads are in cc.

I will be very interested to some other replays with this code on that map; I'm feeling it...

"MY WILL IS UNDONE!"

Edited by oozish, 30 July 2005 - 12:14 AM.

[thudo]

4/4 losses? Oozish.. my image of you is tarnished. I'm currently playtesting as well.

[Quitch]

See http://forums.revora...showtopic=21898 for how to beat Eldar.

Edited by Quitch, 30 July 2005 - 01:31 AM.

[LarkinVB]

That is about beating eldar with v1.2. Now they have a streamlined build order + dancing. Guess that makes them stronger.

[Quitch]

Well I can only beat what I have on my hard drive

[oozish]

Well, I've gotta run outta town for the weekend. When I return I'll give it another shot...a new angle. Quitch, I know how to beat Eldar, I've posted some great replays vs. Eldar on Bloodriver, As a matter of fact, in the 1.2 thread. And like you, they took a while to beat and proved the most challenging of all the races.

With the latest changes, there is no doubt they are more difficult, and playing them ON BLOODRIVER; which is in my opinion one of the hardest human/Ai maps (probably the hardest), is no small feat.

Thud, have you tried this? Now...I've been experimenting with odd builds myself, and it's possible that I need to revert to the tried and true upward build (not the 'scout build' and not the 'ASM build and not the 'tech build' that I've customized for myself. In fact, this is my next step, get back to the basics.

All I can say is well done Larkin, it must have been something in the streamlining...

Thud: don't think worse of me!

Edited by oozish, 30 July 2005 - 01:05 PM.

[Quitch]

Blood River is a good test of the early game, but then it forces them to fight early no matter whether they want to or not, so might not be an entirely good judge of them. milai was complaining on the Relic forums that the AI isn't aggressive enough early on, unlike the vanilla AI, and that it was letting him get away with two gen builds on a regular basis.

Playing on Blood River isn't a good way to judge this particular issue. Fallen City might be a good test for that sort of thing.

Edited by Quitch, 30 July 2005 - 01:44 PM.

[LarkinVB]

All I can say is well done Larkin, it must have been something in the streamlining

Streamlining was major. This was pushed back or deleted from the BO just to get aspect warriors out compared to v1.2 :

1. 2 ranger squads
2. two webway gates
3. 1 generator
4. LP upgrades

Furthermore req_reserve was raised to 240 to avoid upgrade/addon drain before squad build.

That's a lot req saved, therefore aspect squads are MUCH sooner now.
Combined with banshee ignore code and dancing eldars are much stronger early game. They are still weak in the WS warp departement which the AI can only use for retreat, not for tactical attacks - yet. Would be nice if flenser can improve his skirmish code for WS hunting down light infantry/builders if they are exposed.

Edited by LarkinVB, 30 July 2005 - 01:47 PM.

[Flenser]

They are still weak in the WS warp departement which the AI can only use for retreat, not for tactical attacks - yet. Would be nice if flenser can improve his skirmish code for WS hunting down light infantry/builders if they are exposed.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

It depends on what you want the WS to do. If you want the AI to look for isolated capping, scouting or builder squads and then dispatch a WS squad to take them out then, yes, the infantry skirmish code I have for Ork Tankbustas would work well, but it is clear cheating on the part of the AI unless we limit it to enemy squads it can properly 'see'. Keeping track of whether a squad can be seen or not is perfectly doable, but involves a fair amount of coding along the lines of your dancing or my Ork CC code.

What else would you want WS to do?

Flenser

[LarkinVB]

Isn't the raptors/assault/stormboyz code JumpAttackMelee() also unrelated to line of sight and therefore cheating ?

I will try experimental code for WS to JumpAttackRanged(). I check for nearby light armoured ranged squads out of current WS weapon range and try to jump them with WS if their pro rated cost is less than WS squad. It's what pros do when marines have snipers behind their marine squads to fend of DR. They jump them with WS.

[oozish]

Hi all...just an update. I'm back till friday, at which point I'll be out of town till the next week (over 7 days) ...ie., the following Sunday! So I'm sort of 'outof pocket' for recent changes (and very busy with real life work). When I get back I'll be back on track, hopefully the other AI testers can pickup the sadly created slack by my upcoming vacation.

Just wanted everyone to know that if I'm not posting next week it isn't because I'm AWOL, well, not intentionally anyway.
Cheers!

Edited by oozish, 02 August 2005 - 11:16 PM.

[thudo]

Thanks Oozish - we shall uphold the fort fer ya!

[Flenser]

Isn't the raptors/assault/stormboyz code JumpAttackMelee() also unrelated to line of sight and therefore cheating ?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

If the enemy squad is within jump range already, then I would not regard that as objectionable behaviour by the AI. What I was described as potentially cheating behaviour would be where the AI designates a skirmish WS squad and then sends it in the direction of an isolated enemy squad half a map away. It is this ability to see the whole map at once that we need to ensure the AI does not exploit unfairly.

If every time you set a squad to capture points the AI sent a WS squad to intercept them you would start getting pissed off.

What you are describing, however, is not what I was describing and sounds good.

I would like to see capping/ scouting or builder squads targetted, though, as long as the AI does not cheat too much in doing so.

Flenser

[LarkinVB]

As a first step I did allow ranged jumpers to jump ranged enemies if if its stronger by 50%.

I vote for releasing the latest build as soon as possible as it is much better than v1.2. No need to wait another month.