154 replies to this topic

[Quitch]

SM are all about firing off WoTE at the right time

1. Does the AI delete the sorc after using his abilities? It should.

2. Can the AI rally buildings to SPs? It currently doesn't and it's costing it valuable seconds in the early game.

Edited by Quitch, 05 August 2005 - 04:19 PM.

[thudo]

Quitch.. since yer part of the betateam now are you basing your questions of v1.3b2b? As for answering:

1) AI doesn't have the ability AFAIK to delete units/buildings. I haven't seen the function/code to do that. Further, is there a point to delete the Sorc just to fire off some spells? Should it not fire off, retreat, recover from cooldown, then launch them again rather than cost the AI req/power?

2) Hmm.. Does it need to do this? Watch what the AI does right after 20-30sec is up: it immediately sends new units to rally at SPs (StratPoints) as long as they are newly designated as chokepoints. When the AI retreats it rallys near a safe SP to recoup.

If it can be tweaked, AI must protect its main base at all costs then prioritize those of his allies. I've seen the AI just go wandering off conquering territory meanwhile his main base is getting "severely owned" and he doesn't go back fast enough. Grrr.. However, thats a long standing prob with most AIs. More times than not he'll go back but the tolerance level needs adjusting.

[Markoso]

Whoa whoa whoa, now you've tossed in some ugly stuff Quitch, can't disagree more on the sorc. First and foremost, the sorc has to be ABLE to fire off his spells in rapid succession (chains+doombolt) which if I remember right, is undoable\untested, because the effect of trying to make the AI fire off 2 spells with a script is wonky or some such. Secondly, even after doing it, you don't delete your sorc, you charge his ass into battle suicidally (hell, you don't even have to delete, his spells recharge fairly quickly, around as fast as he rebuilds for chains, 60 seconds for doombolt). Sorcs DPS are fairly high, with his HP fairly low, he;s a perfect glass cannon for taking huge amounts of health off an LP when you need to throw him away.

Edited by Markoso, 05 August 2005 - 07:14 PM.

[Quitch]

1. The sorc is spammable precisely because you can fire off his spells, delete him, and have another one on the battlefield double-quick to fire off more spells. The faster he's back, the better. In a Chaos mirror where two play identically bar how they treat their sorc, the one who wipes and rebuys will win. A lot of people don't do it because they consider it abuse, but if the AI can do it it should.

If the AI can't just fire off all the spells then this may not work for it, but if it can and it can afford him again, this is exactly what it should be doing. Defiler spam and sorc spam are what makes Chaos in 1.3.

In a team game you do the same with the FC, charge in, oblit a base, delete and repeat.

2. IMO it does matter. Units will often pause for five seconds outside the stronghold before going to capture. As we all know, in the early game especially every second counts. I only suggest this for its opening cap squads, nothing more.

Edited by Quitch, 05 August 2005 - 11:37 PM.

[LarkinVB]

1. I don't care if people spam sorc, AI shouldn't. It's abuse and very lame.

[Markoso]

Eh, I gotta continue to disagree with you Quitch, while the sorc spells are powerful, you get more bang for your buck to dispatch the sorc by ramming his ass into an LP. He rebuilds fast enough so that he'll be back on the battlefield to do it all again just after he died, thus there is no need to waste req when you can squeeze a few more kills out of him.

[Quitch]

1. I don't care if people spam sorc, AI shouldn't. It's abuse and very lame.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Who the hell cares about lame? Defiler spam is lame. LP abuse is lame. Eldar as a race is lame... and the AI should be doing every single one or you may as well not waste your time coding for that race because the player WILL do that and the player WILL win and when the player wins every time because of it they will promptly delete an AI which isn't giving them a game.

Disagree with the tactics, sure, but if you're not going to do things that in your opinion are "lame" then you're not going to make a very good AI. "Lame" differs from person to person, and you shouldn't waste your time worrying about it, just make the AI play to the best of its abilities because I sure as hell will. Defiler spam is "lame", can we ban that too? Oh wait, we've just crippled Chaos as a race!

The meaning of "lame" changes from day to day... people can't even agree what classes as LP abuse, so you're really wasting your time following that line.

You consider sorc abuse lame... what about those who don't? Hell, they've actually got a stronger case since it's still Eldar, not Chaos, who dominate the ladder! Is this mod now to be subject to the fickle whims of the modders making it? I thought this was about making a tough AI, not one that "plays fair"? Sod playing fair, I want it to play to win, like everyone else does!

@Markoso

Once the sorc has used his spells, I wouldn't target him. He's welcome to run around all he likes because he isn't casting... and if I was really on the ball, I'd wait till just before his spells had finished recharging and THEN target him, really shafting the Chaos player. Harder, but possible. I'd rather have a live, spent sorc running around than have him rebuilding.

Edited by Quitch, 06 August 2005 - 02:15 PM.

[LarkinVB]

Who the hell cares about lame? Defiler spam is lame. LP abuse is lame. Eldar as a race is lame... and the AI should be doing every single one or you may as well not waste your time coding for that race because the player WILL do that and the player WILL win and when the player wins every time because of it they will promptly delete an AI which isn't giving them a game.

Didn't I already told you that I do not care wether a spammer will delete the AI or not ? If not, I do it now. Neither you nor any other player can decide wether I will waste my time, as it is the word MY which makes the difference. I will decide how to spend my time and I will decide what I would like to see with the AI. You can bash the AI, whine and delete but I do not care. Of course there are others that like a no spam AI. Its for them that I code too.

[LarkinVB]

Is this mod now to be subject to the fickle whims of the modders making it? I thought this was about making a tough AI, not one that "plays fair"? Sod playing fair, I want it to play to win, like everyone else does!

Thank god it's not subject to the whim of people like you !

[Quitch]

Lame is subjective and thus pointless to code to.

[thudo]

Please People!

Its the weekend - go out and enjoy the weather. Oh wait.. I'm inside. <sucker>

This is a good forum to debate - thats what we do. And yes, the mod is the byproduct of its creators. Thats creative expression! As a beta tester you can sway our art direction and we expect that to make improvements. I do think that creating a whole tactic file just for the Chaos Sorc is just waayy over the top. We can also code the AI to just rush all enemies right away - boy that be fun too. Every game over in under a minute. FunFun.

Look, we deal with the confines of what we got, mold it to the fashion we desire, along the path we add in some personal flairs from other observers. We'll consider everything being said like other mod teams have for their work.

[LarkinVB]

Code is on its way to Thudo.

v1.3b3 larkin

1. Several attach/dancing/fof fixes/improvements.
2. Grav plats will avoid CC too.
3. Fixed some problems with broken GetPathingDistance().
4. Increased threat radius from 30 to 35 for some checks.
5. Added attackplan to help friendly base under threat (experimental).
6. min_units = 1 for small maps in first 6 minutes (experimental).
7. Hard counter demand code will now work for rand. 15 - 20 minutes.
8. Fixed problem with eldar tier2 due to flexible research changes.

p 6. might result in early harass like the old vanilla AI. Not really tested yet.

[Quitch]

Please People!

Its the weekend - go out and enjoy the weather. Oh wait.. I'm inside. <sucker>

This is a good forum to debate - thats what we do. And yes, the mod is the byproduct of its creators. Thats creative expression! As a beta tester you can sway our art direction and we expect that to make improvements. I do think that creating a whole tactic file just for the Chaos Sorc is just waayy over the top. We can also code the AI to just rush all enemies right away - boy that be fun too. Every game over in under a minute. FunFun.

Look, we deal with the confines of what we got, mold it to the fashion we desire, along the path we add in some personal flairs from other observers. We'll consider everything being said like other mod teams have for their work.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

In 1.3 the Chaos sorc is half the Chaos army, the other half being Defilers. I think that justifies a ton of work on him.

Hell, the AI needs code it in to detect team games of 3v3 or more and to do nothing but fast tech to, and spam, Defailers. If it doesn't already that is, I've been focusing on 1v1.

I don't know how the threat ranges work, but just to warn you, weapons like HBs can sometimes attack LPs (an LP2 has a range of 35, same as an HB) without taking return fire. If threat ranges work like an LP2 they might miss HBs sometimes.

Edited by Quitch, 06 August 2005 - 11:00 PM.

[Markoso]

Heh, I am amused that you'd "ignore" the sorc, who does over 120 DPS even WITHOUT his spells. Of all the commanders, he has some of the absolute highest DPS against most any armor type. While he'll lose 1v1 to any other commander, he'll kick the crap out of any squads he gets into CC (and chains has a 30 second recharge, so he can always pop another of those off to stop a squad he's being danced by).

[Quitch]

I saw him take down an LP in dowpro the other day (where his ability to do so hasn't changed)... nice

I don't remain convnced that this makes him worth keeping, but we'll see

[LarkinVB]

Please open up a 'spam sorceror' thread where you can discuss this and don't highjack this thread. Thanks.

[Markoso]

My bad Larkin >.>

[Excedrin]

I played two games against the AI, as Ork vs Eldar, then vs Chaos. Both games were on non-standard maps, but the AI did well. The game vs Eldar was particularly fun.

If possible, it should use guardians with warlocks, nades and entangle a little more. It also reinforced warpspiders too early, it should focus on getting many small squads with Exarchs before reinforcing (much).

I saw the skirmish code in action once, and it was pretty cool. Some guardians FoF'd in and WS arrived at the same time, then they both retreated due to ork building guns (it didn't really achieve anything, but it didn't lose anything either).

[thudo]

New Build (v1.3b3) goes up tonight! Larkin is on a tear...

[LarkinVB]

Right. ai1.3b4larkin is on its way. Much better orks IMO. Please upload this instead of my old 1.3b3 Thudo.

I added code to let final LP/turret addons face enemy according to Quitchs suggestion.

I would like to get replays of this version when uploaded. Just want to watch AI and note down blunders.

Have fun.

Edited by LarkinVB, 08 August 2005 - 09:21 PM.