27 replies to this topic

[ThetaOrion]

List here the maps that you think are the ultimate best maps for the AI Mod. And, if you feel the need, explain why. I'm looking for the maps that would be best for beta-testing purposes.

Speaking of BetaTesting, as a betatester for the AI Skirmish Mod, I have been looking for maps where the AI routinely gets to the final tier of gameplay during Team Play. I can't really properly beta-test an AI, if you don't get to see the AI perform through all the tiers of gameplay during the replays I provide.

I'm currently looking for the best maps for BetaTesting the AI Skirmish Mod with a human playing in the mix.

On these five following maps, each of the AI can routinely create and send two, three, or four Titan Uber Avatars your direction during the typical game.

This is what I have come up with so far and where to find them:

a) Castle Assault:
http://dawnofwar.fil..._Map_Pack;52086

b) Desert Gauntlet:
http://dawnofwar.fil..._Map_Pack;52086

c) Winter Gauntlet:
http://dawnofwar.fil..._Map_Pack;54676

d) DrawBridge aka DrawBridge Recreated:
http://dawnofwar.fil...rawbridge;58916
http://rapidshare.de...reated.zip.html

e) Black Fortress Version 0.9:
http://stud4.tuwien....579/mymaps.html
http://stud4.tuwien....ck Fortress.exe

f) 8P Winter Assault Kasyr Lutien:
http://dawnofwar.fil...yr_Lutien;50504

g) 8P Hell Lutien:
http://dawnofwar.fil...ll_Lutein;64410
Contains 8P Hell Lutien II with more resources for even larger gameplay:
http://dawnofwar.fil...Fort_Veux;73473

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I'll add other maps to this list, once I'm convinced that the AI routinely gets to the final tiers of gameplay during Team Play with a human in the mix. Of course, there is nothing to prevent the rest of you from suggesting maps that I might have overlooked.

But, I am currently looking specifically for the AI to reliably reach the final tiers during Team Play, because seeing the allied AI and enemy AI perform through all the different tiers of the game is the only way for a human player to reliably betatest the AI in all it's permutations and glory.

I eliminated Winter Castle because it seemed to paralyze the AI for a long period of time, until the user takes down the gates, although the AI does seem to get to the final tiers of the game. The Winter Castle Map can make for a long and boring game, because at points the AI just stands there and does nothing -- not the best situation for beta-testing.

I haven't had time to determine if the AI in Castle Ruosteinen routinely gets to the final tiers of the game. The game might get over too quickly for the AI to routinely reach the final tiers of the game. Castle Ruosteinen also gives Titan Perks to the Orks and the IG, which kind of makes it unfair to betatest on this map, because with the selective use of the Titans for the Orks and IG only, you don't get a pure or equal picture for betatesting purposes. Those who know me know that I take this betatesting quite seriously. Ork Alamo isn't on the list because if you play it natively as suggested, you don't get to see how your AI ally performs because you have no AI ally, and if you play Ork Alamo with an AI ally, you don't usually get to see the final Tiers of the game, at least not with a significant number of the enemy AI players. And, with some of the other maps like 6P Soul Forge and 6P Kasyr Lutien or 4P Mountain Trails or 6P Mortalis, I or the AI just don't last long enough on average to routinely see the final tiers of the game at the HARD setting of the game with a human in the mix.

I included Black Fortress on the list, even though the human player often doesn't survive to the final tiers of the game, because the human player is often being wiped out by final tier stuff when he goes down.

I added Winter Assault Kasyr Lutien, because it is a large balanced map with lots of build space, and although it is classified under 6 Player maps, it is in fact an 8 Player Map. Due to the size of the map, I tend to run into Titan Uber Avatars by the end of the game.

Of all these maps, for me, Castle Assault is the first and the best, when it comes to betatesting the AI with a human in the mix and seeing the prolonged final tier performance of the AI at the HARD setting of the AI Skirmish Mod.

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I have been asked about 8P Marinus and the 6P Bridge map keep coming up. These maps have tight passageways that change the gameplay significantly, and thus weren't the best maps for betatesting Team Play. I visualize these maps, worthy of honorable mention for sure, as being better for Free For All games and thus probably better for betatesting FFA gameplay instead of team play.

The same thing applies to 8P Somme II and 8P Neo-Martian Plains Waterlee map. I tended to find them better for FFA games due to the tight bridges and different restricted gameplay that they seemed to produce. Worthy of honorable mention, but not ones that I turned to for 4vs4 Teamplay or 4vs4 betatesting.

Whereas, many of Aralez's fortress maps or siege maps were specifically designed for what Thud calls Skewed Team Play, and thus happened to work out very well, thanks to the castles, for observing all tiers of the AI action for the most part during skewed team play, with an AI ally in the mix.

6P Soul Forge should probably be on the list, but as 1.70 of the AI Mod became more and more 'imbalanced' feeling, I found that I never lasted long enough on Soul Forge to ever see Tier 4 action. I often didn't get past Tier 2 before my base was gone and I was eliminated, not exactly the best situation for witnessing all the tiers of gameplay if that is the goal.

8P Cliffs of Carcythe is a favorite map of mine, and I do see Tier 4 action there, but it seems to give the Imperial Guard a lot of grief, almost as if it were designed to work against the Imperial Guard being made before the IG and Winter Assault existed. Also, people complain of lag and CTD's with this map. It requires a lot of computer to play it smoothly apparently.

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OLDER ORIGINAL POSTING:

First on the list (of potentially hundreds of maps) is 4P_Mountain Trail Map.

It's a good open balanced map with a few important enjoyable strategic chokepoints and plenty of space for the AI Mod to build.

The 4P Mountain Trail Map loves the AI Mod.

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The maps that Thudo repeatedly keeps suggesting that we should do our BetaTests on:

4P Mountain Trails (His Favorite)

2P Blood River
2P Fallen City
2P Battle Marshes
2P Valley of Khorne

6P Mortalis (He once told me it was his favorite 6P map)
6P Kasyr Lutien (He doesn't seem to complain when we play it)

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Korbah of DoWPro recommends for 1vs1 games:

2P Meeting of Minds
2P Outer Reaches

in addition to some of the 2 player maps that Thud recommends.

Korbah and the DoWPro Pro players don't like Valley of Khorne and tell the people to play something else.

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In some of the more recent AI Skirmish Mod Betas, the different coders were recommending the original official:

6P Testing Grounds

I, too, have had an interesting game or two on that map, and the AI gave me grief.

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During the betas, Arkhan recommended:

8P Concrete Defence

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4vs4 Team play is different than 1vs1 play. Some believe that the only way to properly betatest is 1vs1, but, I'm not of that school.

4vs4 or 3vs3 or 2vs2 gives you a chance to see how your AI ally performs.

Also, for proper gameplay and proper betatesting, I always believed that Annihilation is the only permissable win condition while playing Team Play 4vs4, 3vs3, or 2vs2. I never do take and hold, because you get a better game with Annihilation, plus you get to see the factions through all tiers of gameplay all the way up to the real end of the game with Annihilation.

A Take and Hold victory against the AI feels like cheating to a hardcore AI teamplayer like me or my friend Aralez who got me started on teamplay with and against the AI.

Edited by ThetaOrion, 18 April 2007 - 12:19 PM.

[ThetaOrion]

A Space to Collect a Future List of the 'Ultimate Best' maps for the AI Mod:

Castle Assault Map 3vs5 by Aralez: This map has been nominated and seconded. I know of three other people besides myself who have used this map to test the performance of the AI Skirmish Mod. This map is good for testing the late-game performance of any AI or any custom made balance. This map was recently used by me and another person to demonstrate conclusively that the Tau in the 1.5 Beta Tau Mod are clearly overpowered, because you play the map natively with 3 of you vs 5 of them. If two Tau AI allies inside can easily beat 5 SM AI enemies outside all by themselves, then you know the Tau mod is imbalanced. I have lost more games at the HARD setting with the Castle Assault Map than with any other map.
http://forums.revora...ndpost&p=263816
http://forums.relicn...0&postcount=172
http://forums.relicn...8&page=11&pp=15
Download Castle Assault:
http://dawnofwar.fil..._Map_Pack;52086

Soul Forge by Psy in Community Map Pack Two:
Testing Grounds Level 2 by Sps in Community MapPack One: This map has been nominated, and I second it. You can get some long-running stalemates going on this map if the AI is reasonably balanced, and you can also see rather easily if any AI races are overpowered or underpowered. Bases built on the edges prevent a backdoor attack, which effectively makes everything you do a frontal attack through defenses and incoming enemy troops. Deep striking Termies to the back of a base gets them killed. Parts of this map's design foil or undo or weaken some of the inherent strengths of an AI. Yet, there are numerous indications that the AI 'loves' this map. This map has a very interesting and unique design. I also lost a lot of games on this map at the HARD setting. You have to control the center of the map if you want to win.
There is confusion here. But, it looks like Soul Forge in Map Pack Two replaces Testing Grounds Level 2 from Map Pack 1.
http://forums.revora...ndpost&p=263579


4P Mountain Trail Map: Everybody on the AI team uses this map to test the quality of the AI, especially in the opening critical Tiers. My greatest revelations about flaws in the AI have come from this map, and I often get the feeling that the same thing applies to other members of the team as well.

Each of the following was recommended by Thudo to me for Beta-Testing Purposes, and they have indeed proven to be great maps for beta-testing the AI Skirmish Mod. If you want a little 1vs1 variety:
2P Battle Marshes
2P Blood River
2P Fallen City
2P Valley of Khorne

Edited by ThetaOrion, 14 March 2006 - 11:41 PM.

[ThetaOrion]

This topic could get way out of hand really quick, because every map is playable and potentially enjoyable where the AI Mod is concerned.

I'm after what people consider to be the Ultimate Best Maps for the AI Mod. So, I won't put them on the list above until a map has been nominated, seconded, thirded, and played by me and Thudo and others and we get a feeling that it is indeed one of the Ultimate Best for the AI Mod.

I nominate the usermade Final Desert Gauntlet Map and the Final Castle Assault Map by Aralez for consideration. I'm currently not going to put them on the list of the Ultimate Best, until they have been seconded and thirded and others are in agreement that they should be on the list.

But for me, the 2vs4 Desert Gauntlet Map and the 3vs5 Castle Assault Map, where you are supposed to play at uneven odds, gives you a chance to see the weaknesses and the strengths of the AI opponents and the AI allies and are thus very well suited for enjoyment with the AI Mod, imho. I nominate them for consideration.

I think this is the link to download them:
http://dawnofwar.fil..._Map_Pack;52086

The Desert Gauntlet and the Castle Assault maps are proving to be my personal all-time favorite maps for skirmish mode and for testing the strengths and the weaknesses of the AI. Some people have called them the best siege maps ever made.

Do I hear any seconds or thirds for the nomination.

Also, feel free of course, to make your lists of nominations below. Even if your nominations never make it onto the list of the Ultimate Best, your nominations will at least be registered so that others can decide whether they agree with your nomination or not.

[ThetaOrion]

My only reservations about the Desert Gauntlet and the Castle Assault map is that large numbers of Space Marines or Chaos (3 or more factions of SM or Chaos outside) acquire an extreme advantage that sometimes makes winning impossible.

If there are lots of Space Marine or Chaos attackers present in the layout or scenario, they often just fly by the gates and destroy the defenders inside as if the gates don't even exist.

But, the maps are still worthy of nomination -- I would never have discovered that SM or Chaos advantage if it weren't for those maps. The Space Marines are simply the best for breaking a siege or overrunning a castle, and it was that way before and after 1.60 of the AI Mod. And, the Chaos have their Chaos Spam which can be really challenging to beat, especially if there are five factions of the Chaos Spam that you are going up against.

Edited by ThetaOrion, 28 January 2006 - 04:22 AM.

[Quietdeath]

In my opinion every map with much space is suitable for the ai.
So if you want to have a really challenging match you have to play on a 8-players map

[ArkhanTheBlack]

The map with the by far strongest AI I know is testing grounds from one of the community map packs. The designer should really get an skirmish AI award for that.

[ThetaOrion]

Seeking Confirmation:

Is it the Testing Grounds Level 2 by Sps in MapPack One that you are talking about?

http://www.bitcheswi...k_i_000338.html

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The reason I ask is that it sounds like there is a Testing Ground One or Testing Ground Level 1 someplace else. I assume since Testing Grounds Level 2 is in MapPack ONE, that it must be the one that you are talking about, because you mention the mappack.

[ArkhanTheBlack]

I've installed only the three community map packs. So it's probably the one from pack 1.

[ThetaOrion]

Okay, it looks like there is a 6P Testing Grounds map that game with the DoW game, so it must indeed be the one from the MapPack 1 that you are talking about.

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SUBSEQUENT POST:

I went in and tried both the Testing Grounds Level 2 and the original Testing Grounds 6 Player Maps.

Both were really good maps, but that Testing Grounds Level 2 is one awesome map. You really can't run your armies to the fringes in some sort of rush or behind the scenes harrassing play, because they build their bases at the fringes, and you can't stand under that kind of heat for long at the back of someone's base. If you let the AI get built up, you are in for a fight. It was turning into an endless stalemate, until the 2Chaos AI enemies found my SM base, then it was over. The Computer assigned me 2 IG AI allies which weren't of much use against the Orks and the 2Chaos.

I can see why you like the 6P Testing Grounds Level 2 Map that came in MapPack One. The AI really gave me a bruising.

Edited by ThetaOrion, 23 December 2005 - 01:24 AM.

[ThetaOrion]

I updated this thread today.

This thread led me to a favorite map that I had overlooked and never seen the past couple of years. So for that alone, this thread has been worth it.

[ThetaOrion]

I got to thinking that I ought to make a couple more nominations of maps that I have been enjoying.

I have played the Ork Alamo (1vs5) with the AI Skirmish Mod a lot. It is a unique map that uses the Titan Pieces, and it's easy to get caught on the long trail and stuck and thus overrun unless you move quickly. This is one map where I have to play at VERY SLOW speed just so I can have time to micromanage all of the different things that need to be done to win. This map is by Aralez.

Ork Alamo:
http://dawnofwar.fil...Ork_Alamo;54178

It's a different and unique experience when there is one of you and five of them. I won't officially nominate it or put it on the master list up above unless many other people find it and start nominating it. But, you should be aware of its existence -- a 1vs5 where you can win.

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Also, Aralez came up with a Havoc Edition of the Castle Assault and the Desert Gauntlet. These new Havoc maps are called Winter Castle and Winter Gauntlet.

I do NOT recommend or nominate the Winter Castle -- four additions to the map, four Titan pieces in front of the inner gates literally paralyzes the AI, and the AI just retreats and sits there for a very long time and waits for you to take down the gates to the castle. Four large changes, the four Titan Pieces, basically breaks the AI or turns off the AI, making for a very wierd game. The AI is actually scared.

However, I do recommend and nominate the Winter Gauntlet map, especially if you are the type of person who loves havoc, mayhem, chaos, pyrotechnics, and piles of dead bodies. It's just fun to play.

The Desert Gauntlet Map is a 2vs4 Map, but the Winter Gauntlet is a 2vs6 Map, and you can win with the Winter Gauntlet because there are three Titan pieces mounted in the throat of the gaunlet on the Winter Gauntlet map. The AI keeps coming and it works out to be endless streams of the dead and smoking craters. It's a blast.

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Winter Gauntlet Found Here:
http://dawnofwar.fil..._Map_Pack;54676

This one I do nominate, especially for those who actually play to have fun.

[ThetaOrion]

BTW, I tend to prefer and nominate a lot of Aralez's maps.

Aralez makes his maps with the AI Skirmish Mod for the AI Skirmish Mod, which kind of makes his maps very suitable for the Theme or Topic of this thread.

It was Aralez who introduced me to the AI Skirmish Mod.

This 8Player WA Kasyr_Lutien Map is one that I played a lot. It's the map that got me started doing 4vs4 AI comparisons, 4Eldar vs 4Chaos, 4SM vs 4Chaos, etc. It's the map where I started testing the AI, even though it was the Plain Vanilla AI that I was testing at the time. It's also a map where I developed strategies to compensate for the bugs or the inherent weaknesses of the Plain Vanilla AI. It's where I first started figuring out ways to win the unwinnable.

It's misfiled under 6Player maps, but this should be the 8player version:
http://dawnofwar.fil...yr_Lutien;50504

Aralez modified it so that the IG would have room to build, so this map works well with both Plain Vanilla AI and the AI Skirmish Mod. But, it's not a map that I have ever seen nominated or listed anywhere, despite the fact that it was made with the AI Skirmish Mod in mind. I was involved beta-testing the three previous versions of the map, which is why I know about it.

[ThetaOrion]

Do you guys have a favorite 8 player map that CAME WITH THE GAME that looks to be just perfect for the Skirmish Mod AI? I was looking through them, and none of them looked right -- limited resource points, or no slag deposits, or wierd tight imbalanced layouts.

How about a 6 player map that came with the game? 6P Mortalis and 6P Kasyr Lutien seem to be the ones used most. But, are there others?

Are there any Thudo approved 6 Player or 8 Player maps for the Beta Testers that came with the game?

I wanted to try some FFA, like I used to do in the past, but I found that all of the 6 Player and 8 Player maps that I like are made by the user community and didn't come with the game. Am I overlooking something?

Edited by ThetaOrion, 28 January 2006 - 12:59 AM.

[ThetaOrion]

Theta: there is no official list - just use the default maps that come with the game but the best ones are 2p_FallenCity, 2p_BloodRiver, 4p_MountainTrail (my fav), and others but the best rule of thumb is:

If you see an anomaly on ONE map try to reproduce it on another. Never try one map.. try a bunch and look for similiar results. Then we'll go from there!

I agree with Thudo:

And, I think somebody could do a whole Doctoral Thesis on the Mountain Trails Map discussing how to win and why that map is so special and unique and why the gameplay on that map has a way of drawing you in while at the same time giving you a real challenge.

The Mountain Trails Map has a way of never getting old. It must be that never-ending ongoing fight to get the win that keeps drawing us in. What else could it be?


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The maps that Thudo repeatedly keeps suggesting that we should do our BetaTests on:

4P Mountain Trails (His Favorite)

2P Blood River
2P Fallen City
2P Battle Marshes
2P Valley of Khorne

6P Mortalis (He once told me it was his favorite 6P map)
6P Kasyr Lutien (He doesn't seem to complain when we play it)

Edited by ThetaOrion, 10 March 2006 - 08:07 AM.

[Drutt_myth]

Hi
I am new here but thought i would post a map that i have found to be great for my own testing of the AI and different mods.

its called Bridge and i got it off Dow files in one of the map packs there.

its a 3v3 map with large base aeras and plenty of room to build and each base has a relic.

the AI's on version 1.6 allways are able to make their ubers and get them out in the fight. its a good map and lots of fun.

[ThetaOrion]

Ah, yes, Bridge. That's another one of Aralez's creations.

Interesting story there, for those who like to trade war stories.

I used to play DoW exclusively in Free-For-All, each man for himself. This was before Winter Assault. Anyway, I was always playing alone against 5 different AI or against 7 different AI, and had some epic games and lost almost as many as I won at the STANDARD setting with the Plain Vanilla AI.

Anyway, I was always complaining to Aralez that I could never win FFA at the HARD setting. I was never able to do it. I'm just too old and slow.

Then a week or two later, Aralez tells me to try the Bridge map at the HARD setting, so I do, and I'm able to consistently get in some wins at the HARD setting. Bridge was the first map that I ever won at the HARD setting Free-For-All. And, I have done it more than once. Massive games FFA, and great choke points. I always felt that Aralez made that Bridge map specifically for me.

But now, I kind of feel that team play, 3vs3, would be a bit too easy at the HARD setting on the Bridge Map, so I never tried it that way. But, who knows, trying it 3vs3 in team play at the HARDER setting just might get me my first win ever at the HARDER setting?

Anyway, yes, Bridge is a great map. It makes me wonder if I have gotten any better over the years. One day in seven, I feel like a real genius, but the rest of the days, I feel like I have made no improvement whatsoever ever since DoW was first released. I pre-ordered DoW, so I have had it ever since it has been around. But, maybe I need to try Bridge again, to see for myself if anything has changed.

DoW is a great game, and the team, Thudo, Larkin, and Arkhan have only made it better with the AI Skirmish Mod.

Edited by ThetaOrion, 28 February 2006 - 07:05 AM.

[ThetaOrion]

Arkhan Wrote: The map with the by far strongest AI I know is testing grounds from one of the community map packs. The designer should really get an skirmish AI award for that.

We concluded that this was Testing Grounds Level 2 in the First Community Map Pack.

A subsequent map pack offers to remove Testing Grounds Level 2, which I always told it not to do, because I didn't want it to go away. I had no idea that it was being replaced with something else.

But, from what I just discovered, the map called "Soul Forge" is a replacement or an update for Testing Grounds Level 2.

Anyway, Soul Forge isn't listed anywhere on the official lists of the Community Map packs, but it must have come into existence on my machine from one of them, most likely the Third Community Map pack. EDIT: Nope, the date and time stamp says that Soul Forge appears in the Second Community Map Pack. I don't remember where the offer to remove Testing Grounds Level 2 comes from, either Community Map Pack 2 or Community Map Pack 3.

I do believe that Soul Forge is the same thing as Testing Grounds Level 2, but maybe with a bug fix or two? I know that Testing Grounds Level 2 has the position number on the thumbnail wrong for positions 4 through 6. Maybe that's why TGL2 became Soul Forge?

Now it's time for me to try out 6P Soul Forge and see how it plays out -- see if there is any difference or any improvement. Soul Forge looks to be the exact same thing as Testing Grounds Level 2 from the thumbnail and the description. Kind of confusing.

EDIT: The numbering of position 4 through 6 on the thumbnail is still wrong and reversed on Soul Forge. And, Soul Forge put the Relics in more out of the way places, which I wasn't ready for. But it is still the same map, and I still was losing to the AI.

EDIT: Community Map Packs found here:
http://www.bitcheswi...m/dow/mappacks/

Edited by ThetaOrion, 16 March 2006 - 12:29 AM.

[ThetaOrion]

Looking to Reliably Witness AI End-Game Performance:

During the past couple of months, I have been actively searching for a couple of large 6 Player or 8 Player maps where I get to reliably see the end-game performance of the AI in each and every game during Team Play.

So far, Castle Assault, DrawBridge Recreated, Desert Gauntlet, and Winter Gauntlet have been what I have come up with. On these maps, the enemy AI outside the castle always seems to make it to the final tiers of the game. Then you get to see the performance of anywhere from four to six of the AI in the final tier four of the game. These maps are Skewed Alliances or Skewed Team Play, and they are also siege maps.

Soul Forge or Testing Grounds Level 2 is close, but the problem with that map is that I usually don't last long enough to see the end-game performance of the AI on Soul Forge.

I have a couple of other prospects, where the AI (and the human player) reliably gets to the final tiers of the game, but I haven't had time to test these maps yet.

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In the past, I seemed to routinely see Final Tier AI action on:
8P Somme II
8P Waterlee
8P Winter Assault Kaysr Lutien (listed above)
6P Bridge
but most of these maps I played Free For All. So, I'm not quite sure how they would do with Team Play, whether the AI would always get to the final tier of teamed gameplay or not.

Somme II, Waterlee, and Bridge can be found here:
http://dawnofwar.fil...ap_Pack_1;38537

8P Marinus has the potential to get to the final tiers, but I don't recommend it because the AI doesn't seem to routinely get to the final tiers in actual play and because if the IG made a BaneBlade, it would never be able to navigate the passageways. The tight passagesways kills the gameplay, and there are not enough open spaces for the AI to fight normally. The same might happen to 6P Bridge as well in team play.

But, I am looking specifically for the AI to reliably get to the final tiers during Team Play, because seeing the allied AI and enemy AI perform through all the different tiers of the game is the only way to reliably betatest the AI in all it's permutations and glory.

Look at the first post in this thread for an updated list of the best maps for Beta Testing that fits this criteria and where to find them:
http://forums.revora...ndpost&p=224512

Edited by ThetaOrion, 16 March 2006 - 11:26 PM.

[ThetaOrion]

In a post that I can no longer find, Arkhan mentioned liking a map called Concrete Defence.

Ah, the search worked this time, and here it is from half a world away:
http://forums.revora...ndpost&p=249324

I played Concrete Defence and surprisingly liked the gameplay as well with the AI Skirmish Mod, but I haven't played it enough to know if it merits anything more than an honorable mention. I usually don't like such open and spartan maps, but the game I played went well, and I had a good deal of fun.

CONCRETE DEFENCE download:
http://dawnofwar.fil...e_Defence;36170

Edited by ThetaOrion, 16 March 2006 - 11:24 PM.

[ThetaOrion]

The Official Official 6P Testing Grounds was being recommended by Arkhan and Larkin as a good map for testing the AI.

I played a couple of games on that map, and the AI gave me grief. So, it's a good map for the AI Skirmish Mod.