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v1.65b3 is ready for testing!


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#1 thudo

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Posted 10 January 2006 - 06:18 AM

Go get em beta people! :)

All coders - please synch your scripts with this one.

Both Larkin and Arkhan did a bang-up job on this one!

Remmeber.. for testing

1) Play 1vs1 and team-based games, mention who you played and against.. Who won and comments..

2) Be concise and point-form your results as much as possible so we can determine priorities and easily make code changes.

Enjoy!
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#2 Zenoth

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Posted 10 January 2006 - 10:01 AM

Superb.

I'll be en route to testing soon.

#3 LarkinVB

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Posted 10 January 2006 - 09:39 PM

Arkhan, are you sure your engineer code is allowing unlocked engineers to walk to slag heaps ?

They have to walk there even while not building instantly to remove fog of war. Otherwise the CanBuildAt() code will not work. Therefore I added all the slag state stuff. I guess your code will stop them on these moves.

#4 ArkhanTheBlack

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Posted 10 January 2006 - 10:17 PM

They will move to slag depots. I've tested it on several maps, and it works.
I've implemented a ValidMove(...) method by abusing another code piece you've written once to check all movement commands, if I'm right: The domove(...) method in cpumanager.ai.
If the ValidMove() method is used, the engineer code stores the target position. If the engineer moves out of range of his base, I compute a move command to this position. Since the worker bug doesn't use the ValidMove(...) command, the code recognizes that the engineer makes an invalid move command and will return to base. The slag depot uses a valid target position, and the engineer will therefore reliable move to it.

#5 ThetaOrion

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Posted 10 January 2006 - 10:20 PM

What's in this Beta3 release?

Thudo's readme of changes on the download site is still lacking any mention of BRAINs in the STANDARD and EASY difficulty settings, though everyone keeps saying that the brains are there and it is certainly clear from my playing at the EASY setting using the Beta2 that something was different.

Is the Imperial Guard in beta 3 supposed to be playing better and doing better as an AI? Or is that a feature for a future beta?

--

BTW, it's nice to see that Larkin is concerned about making sure that all the new repair code is working as it should or as expected. I think it is a really good thing that Larkin hasn't deserted us.

Someone on the Relic forum was complaining about the 1.60 AI in the Mod not doing repairs, so this new addition will make a lot of people happy, and not just the beta-testers.

#6 LarkinVB

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Posted 10 January 2006 - 10:27 PM

I see Arkhan. Clever move to make it more general. Guess copy & paste will be my friend.

It is interesting to watch your object orientated coding solutions (guess C++ is your main language) and compare them to my old school stuff (I started with C and never realy made it to C++. I'm too old :umad:)

I plan to add all your AI changes to DoWpro as soon as your code is stable and DoWpro will include IG. It has to be balanced/unchanged for more than a week too.

Edited by LarkinVB, 10 January 2006 - 10:36 PM.


#7 ArkhanTheBlack

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Posted 10 January 2006 - 10:39 PM

I see Arkhan. Clever move to make it more general. Guess copy&paste will be my friend.


Thanks. Make sure that you don't forget to add ValidMove(...) in tactic.ai.


What's in this Beta3 release?


I've mentioned the major changes in my "Back at work..." thread. IG improved, new jump code, repairing, worker bug fixed, etc.

#8 Zenoth

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Posted 10 January 2006 - 10:49 PM

Testing Report #1

Map Name: Mortalis
# Of Players: 6
Free For All / Alliance: Alliance (Space Marines / Imperial Guards / Eldars)
Factions Played Against: Orks & Chaos
Game Rules: Annihilate
A.I Difficulty: Hard
Who Won: Alliance

Comments: My primary focus was to observe the new structures repair capability, and also keep an eye on the jump code efficiency.

First of all, I must say and confirm that the structures repairing code works properly ... but there might be something wrong going on with Listening Posts.

And the jump code looks somewhat better to me. But I still have to analyse my own replays to comment further on it.

I've taken a screenshot of Heretics in repairing action (Chaos Temple).
Posted Image

I think there was something wrong with Computer 3 (South-East Chaos). The Chaos Heretics there ignored three nearby damaged Listening Posts. Here is a screenshot ...
Posted Image

Those Heretics standing by the Desecrated Stronghold, had enough time and Requisition to repair at least one of them. But they ignored all three (even though you see only two in the screenshot).

I mention Computer 3 in the example, because it's so obvious when looking at the replay.

But technically speaking, I haven't seen a single Listening Post being repaired. I might have missed something, but if my eyes aren't lying to me, no worker units in none of the five A.I players actually repaired a damaged Listening Post (or Relic, even though they repair themselves slowly if I am not mistaken).

Well, I say they ignored ... but perhaps it isn't an appropriate word. They might have had other priorities, or they considered that they didn't have enough Requisition to do it.

Or LP's simply aren't part of the "structures list" in the current repair code lines.

I have a question for Arkhan and Larkin: Are Listening Posts actually part of the structures allowed to be repaired ? I'd imagine so ? I just want to make sure. If it's the code still under construction, it's a bug in the code, or if it's a map-related problem only.

And, to end the first part of this report, I'll point you guys to the following ...
Posted Image

Now you will say what's wrong in there ?

Well, I'm still trying to figure out a proper definition. But let's just call that "groups of A.I being lost".

That happened in previous versions if I recall correctly.

The issue (I personally consider that as an issue indeed) consists of one or more groups of infantry, attached to an hero unit or not (it doesn't matter), moving to what seems to be a random allied base (although I believe it's always mine). Then once arrived (usually nearby the Stronghold, just like the screenshot shows us) they move back and forth within a short radius, staying in the base, basically doing nothing else than running around. The group(s) move around without a purpose for a period of time, which means between 30 seconds to a few minutes (as I've seen before). Often causing problems or should I say restrictions to vehicles movement.

In the example mentioned above (as seen in the replay), they stand and move around one of my Mahine Cults, potentially blocking vehicles when they arrive.

By looking at it, or them, moving like that, it does look like a path-finding problem. Or perhaps more like they want to go to point "B", but also want to do something else.

If it is a path-finding bug, then it should be limited to the maps themselves. Where more open-ended maps, with large areas, allow for a smooth units circulation, and maps with narrow passages or limited space for main-base building will see such an issue repeating itself without us being able to do anything about it but the maps creators themselves.

If however it isn't a path-finding problem, then I don't known what it is. But one thing is for sure, it's annoying.

If you guys want to see something similar (well, actually the exact same thing, only with a smaller group), just take a look at my reports for 1.65B2. One of them talks about a group of IG attached to a Command Squad standing in my main base for a period of time, doing nothing.

Well, I will do more testing. And I might edit this report if I see something I missed or something important to mention.

My next report will be a 1 Vs 1.

Edited by Zenoth, 10 January 2006 - 10:51 PM.


#9 ArkhanTheBlack

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Posted 10 January 2006 - 11:01 PM

Thanks for the report! The repair code is far from being perfect since we're still not able to check the HP of a building. I restricted repairing to buildings in 20 range around the start position since the main production buildings and the HQ is in this area. That's the reason why they didn't repair the LP's.

You should check if the lost AI squad problems still occur in beta 3. I've made some heavy changes in these code parts, so you can expect an improved behaviour in this area.

#10 ThetaOrion

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Posted 10 January 2006 - 11:15 PM

What's in this Beta3 release?


I've mentioned the major changes in my "Back at work..." thread. IG improved, new jump code, repairing, worker bug fixed, etc.


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Ya need to get with Thudo and have him include this in his list of changes.

I didn't see any mention of 'IG improved', though I might not have gotten the interpretations right.

And so far, I have never seen any mention of Brains in the Standard and Easy on Thudos lists of changes or improvements.

It would be helpful to me, and maybe others as well, if Thudos list of changes was a little more complete, especially a big change like playable Standard and Easy settings in the AI mod.

Some people would consider having Standard and Easy playable to be a big change. I thought it was a significant change and deserving of mention.

But, from his list of changes, I'm not sure when the change took place or even if it took place.

#11 ThetaOrion

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Posted 10 January 2006 - 11:35 PM

groups of A.I being lost

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I have seen this behavior too, and it was always the Imperial Guard AI ally.

The IG AI ally will just come and stand in my base, standing around doing nothing.

I took it to be yet another of the IG Plain Vanilla AI flaws that was just simply hardcoded into the Imperial Guard.

It's like the IG AI ally came to hide behind me and my soldiers and my buildings. It's like they are in permanent retreat. They are bunkering or turtling or whatever you call it. The IG were supposed to be the master defender race, but instead, it's like multiple opposing goals got programmed into their AI.

I just thought that this 'Lost AI' was a hardcoded locked flaw of the Plain Vanilla AI where the Imperial Guard were concerned. I always thought that Relic put the least amount of time into the IG AI out of all the AI's. The SM and Chaos AI's always seemed pretty intelligent, whereas the plain vanilla IG AI never seemed to have any real intelligence and was broken on many fronts right from the very beginning.

The plain vanilla AI summary according to ThetaOrion: Relic can never make up their minds about the Ork's AI, and Eldar were too hard or units too specific to get a general AI to work right in all situations for the Eldar. SM and Chaos AI good and tested and right. IG AI broken from the start -- too many conflicting goals in their AI.

With the IG, Relic started to make them the master defenders, and then polluted that with an early game rush, a completely opposing tactic or theory. The IG AI thus tries to be a melding of two diametrically opposed contradictory military tactics -- attack and defense, rush and turtle. And, it doesn't work. It's like Relic could never make up their minds as to what they wanted to do with the IG. And, then it shows up in the performance of the AI itself.

#12 Zenoth

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Posted 11 January 2006 - 12:09 AM

Arkhan, ok then now I understand why the LP's were ignored.

Hmmm ... perhaps increasing the repair radius just a little could help ?

In most of the maps I've played so far the nearest LP(s) seem to be outside that range of 20 as you say. And we all known Listening Posts are extremely important. Actually the most important thing right after your Stronghold.

I do take note that the code is of course being tested. And it isn't going to stay like this for long. I, and all other beta testers are here to try the current builds though. As a tester, but also as a simple player enjoying the game, I believe that it would be nice to allow for a greater radius range in the next version if ever possible.

As for the "A.I lost" issue, I myself have seen it happening to Orks. I believe it is perhaps more obvious with the Imperial Guards indeed, but sadly not exclusively.

My reports in 1.65B2 speak of a similar issue with three groups of Ork infantry "toying" around in a Chaos base. Not for long though. But it happened.

Arkhan, I believe the issue might be more "controlled" in this new Beta build. But there's always two sides on a medal, if you see what I mean. It might have been improved, and happens less often, but it still occurs, and it does a bit too often in my book. But hey, yes indeed, this is a Beta build. I'm just here to report what I see and experience.

Like ThetaOrion suggests, such behavior might have been hard-coded, especially in the Imperial Guards' code. If it is indeed the case, then I fear the only thing we can do about it is to complain.

Edited by Zenoth, 11 January 2006 - 12:10 AM.


#13 ThetaOrion

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Posted 11 January 2006 - 02:03 AM

Well, for weeks there my biggest gripe or complaint was the AI using its builder units as front line infantry. If the Worker Bug is now gone, then the worry is that the engineers or builders will no longer build distant listening posts and will no longer build a secondary base -- in other words that the scope of the builders will now be too narrow.

With workers or engineers, you want their scope narrowed so that they will not be getting killed so often and not be rushing turrets like the IG TechPriests seemed to do. But, you don't want their scope, range, and/or function so narrow that they never build or repair a listening post outside their base of operations.

It will take time for Arkhan and the coder team to find or achieve the right balance.

Edited by ThetaOrion, 11 January 2006 - 02:04 AM.


#14 Zenoth

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Posted 11 January 2006 - 02:28 AM

Well, I for one can say that the A.I does build in your base in this version.

You can clearly see it happening in my replay actually. Although it happened late game, I saw an Eldar worker building a stronghold in my base.

I believe the "balance" is there. But perhaps still not efficient enough. It will require more testing, trial and errors, as usual, and eventually we'll find something that should please the majority of players enjoying Dawn Of Skirmish A.I.

Edited by Zenoth, 11 January 2006 - 02:28 AM.


#15 LarkinVB

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Posted 11 January 2006 - 06:12 AM

Builders will build as usual. The new code is just preventing them to wander away aimlessley and getting killed. Therefore no harm is in the new code.
Their scope is NOT narrowed.

#16 ThetaOrion

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Posted 11 January 2006 - 08:56 AM

Builders will build as usual. The new code is just preventing them to wander away aimlessley and getting killed. Therefore no harm is in the new code.
Their scope is NOT narrowed.



Cool!!

--

It will be interesting to see how it all plays out or sorts out over the days as we have a chance to give it a go for real.

#17 thudo

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Posted 11 January 2006 - 02:01 PM

Larkin - is there a way to specify a distance from the Startpoint or HQ assets so that the "Repair Radii" can be increased? It would be useful "to a degree" to have the closest LPs be available for repair and thats it. No outside that area. Also.. I've noticed engineers mid-game (where most damage to buildings occur) will sit idle most of the time so is there a way to increase the repair-frequency checks after, say, Tier3 onward? Tier1-2 the engineers are busy building their bases so no repairs will likely be needed.
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#18 LarkinVB

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Posted 11 January 2006 - 03:05 PM

Repair area can easily be increased. Engineers shouldn't be idle mid/late game. They should at least run around and tap each building to check for repair. I don't have Arkhans repair code here at work, so I can't go into detail by examples. He can surely answer your questions.

Edited by LarkinVB, 11 January 2006 - 03:07 PM.


#19 thudo

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Posted 11 January 2006 - 03:14 PM

Fabulous! Btw.. what happened with the HDD crash? Did you get anything back or hopefully not lose anything important? DoWPro still retained (no critical loss of AI files)?
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#20 LarkinVB

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Posted 11 January 2006 - 03:38 PM

Thanks for your interest. All major data is still available. The HD had same bad blocks, preventing boot and access to win registry (were my client did store the ftp data). I could retrieve all other data nicely.

DoWpro AI is fine but I stopped coding cause Korbah/Mlai are changing major stuff daily. No need to try to catch up until IG is added and updates are only weekly. Their update speed does remind me of my heydays. I had a comparable frequency.



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