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v1.65b4 ready for your considerations


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#41 Quietdeath

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Posted 25 January 2006 - 09:46 PM

a) Map Name: 2P_OUTER_REACHES
b) # of Players: 2
c) FFA or Alliance: FFA
d) Factions Played Against: SM(darkgreen) vs SM(white-hard ai)
e) Who Won: Team 1
f) Replay: Download here!
g) Comments:
(Before I start: Yes, I know - this map isn't very suitable for the AI, but I was interested how it would behave there.)
I recommend you to watch the replay, because I saw some small things which I cant put in words...
1. Very nice jump here - my marines were not able to move (you have to see it in the replay :lol: ):
Posted Image
2. The AI was passive the whole game and did not attack, except for this small scout attack. They harassed my FC with little success :lol: - I do not know why the AI is so careful the whole time and sometimes starting a suicide mission...:
Posted Image
edit: 3. I watched the replay a second time and I think the AI is a bit slow with the build order - especially of LPs.


edit: Zenoth mentioned the crash I had once with Beta 3 - I dont know wether it was related to the AI but I think it was caused by my gfx driver - had no crash til today with my new drivers ... (also my card is not overclocked which makes it more stable).

Edited by Quietdeath, 25 January 2006 - 09:55 PM.


#42 ThetaOrion

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Posted 25 January 2006 - 10:24 PM

1. In every other version of the AI on the Castle Assault Map, the Assault Marines and Chaos Raptors fly right on by the gates into the castle and harrass and kill and slow production, which usually makes 5 Chaos and 5 SM the toughest AI enemies on the Castle Assault Map. Beta 4 is unique. The Chaos Raptors don't fly into the castle, and I assume the Assault Marines aren't flying either, but I have not had the time to test the theory.

2. But, in plain vanilla AI, the Ork StormBoyz will retreat half the time and fly half the time when they approach the gates on the Castle Assault Map. The Orks are the weakest AI ally and the weakest AI enemy on the Castle Assault Map. But, seeing Ork Strormboyz not fly or seeing them retreat would not be unique to Beta 4.

3. I often in the previous betas see my AI ally retreat back into the castle on the Desert Gauntlet Map. It's just that in the previous Beta 3, they came back outside after a period of time. I don't ever remember seeing an AI ally be outside castle and then retreat back inside the castle on the Castle Assault Map. That was something unique to Beta 4.

4. In Beta 4, the IG seem to be standing their ground better rather than retreating under fire. Yes, they will back off if being totally overrun. But in the Plain Vanilla, the IG AI ally (and Ork AI ally) would often retreat and turtle up in the furthest corner away from the action at the first sign of fire, especially on the Desert Gauntlet Map. I think the IG AI will now stand and fight on the Desert Gauntlet, but I haven't yet had time to test the theory. The IG AI enemies were the easiest to overrun on the Desert Gauntlet Map. I wonder if that will still be the case with Beta 4.

5. The Space Marines and Chaos are always good, despite the fact that they aren't flying in Beta 4. Thudo has been making the Eldar AI good, and I noticed that in the previous betas. I'm getting the feeling that the IG are really good in Beta four, but I haven't yet had the chance to test the theory on the small maps. I need to see how the IG AI do now on the Mountain Trails Map. I get the feeling that it's the ORK AI that needs the attention now and needs to be bolstered. The Orks still seem to be the weakest or least effective faction on the largest maps, and if the Orks aren't producing a Squiggoth, well that needs looking at too.

Edited by ThetaOrion, 25 January 2006 - 10:27 PM.


#43 Malkor

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Posted 26 January 2006 - 12:03 AM

Okay, the IG 'vehicle rush' is still VERY stupid.

For starters, they're still building commisars and command squads before they even have a tactical command. They shouldn't build ANY infantry besides 2 guardsmen squads for capping. That's it, until they hit tier3. They also don't get the tactical command for ages, even if they have the resources.

My BO goes like this,

Build Infantry Command
Get Guardsmen
Build Tactical Command
Get Guardsmen
Cap stuff
Get generator when resources permit
Get one or two lp's while I wait for power
get tier2
get another generator
if I can cap more, great. If not, that's fine. This build worked perfectly in penal colony with only 2 lps and a relic at my disposal. I was able to hellhound rush an insane SM and kill him without effort. I am still playing the game (orks are going looted tanks/squig/nobz and it's seriously impossible to kill them with IG), so I'll have a replay for you shorlty.

For an early summary, only orks even put up a fight against my IG. The insane IG is a pathetic opponent, and should be doing better than me, not worse. I suck as a player and I rarely ever play, and I still can get a bunch of hellhounds long before the SM drop their first cult or IG even get tier2. I keep pressing to fix this, but no one seems to listen.

edit: Yeah. There's no way I can beat those orks with IG. IG infantry are harmless and squiggoth/looted tanks just shreds everything I throw at them. Tried to shelling them to shit from afar, but they just rebuilt everything. So, I suicided, and am now watching orks vs the SM. They're not attacking each other... just roaming around.

edit II: Yeah. They both sat indefinately at their LP's, so I aborted the game.

Here's the replay. Sit back, get some popcorn, and enjoy the endless violence and whoring of baneblades.

www.staff.samods.org/iskatumesk/8P_PENAL_COLONY.2006-01-25.17-08-18.rar

1.65b4 FFA on penal colony (SPORE COLONY LOL)

Edited by Malkor, 26 January 2006 - 12:56 AM.


#44 ThetaOrion

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Posted 26 January 2006 - 01:12 AM

Malkor:

What map were you using for your 1 Ork vs 1 IG AI Insane game?

--

On the other side of the coin playing as IG.

Someone told me the other day that getting Kasyrkin, completely upgrading them with PLASMA and numbers and attaching a Priest to them makes the Kasyrkin squad stand up to or own anything that the Chaos can field, one on one, and it works.

Upgrade the Kasyrkin to Plasma, not Grenade Launchers, and try attaching different commanders like Priest, Commissar, Psycher, and then see if the Kasyrkin give you the punch you are looking for against the Orks. And Priests and Commisars have that Fanaticism thing that makes your Kasyrkin temporarily invulnerable, or nearly so, and that works well against Chaos also.

3 Squads of fully upgraded Kasyrkin with a Priest attached to each seems to mow through Chaos really well, and you don't lose them faster than you can upgrade them with a Priest attached. It was a new strategy for me and it worked against Chaos. I would be interest to know if it works against the Orks.

In the past betas, I noticed that 1 on 1, the Ork AI always overran the IG AI. The IG AI seems to be natively the weakest against the Orks AI.

--

And yes, I tend to use the same build order for the IG. On a small map, the IG AI really shouldn't build more than two or three squads of Guardsmen. They should concentrate on getting to Tier 2 instead. The IG needs to tech up faster on the smaller maps, or at least that's what was needed in the previous betas. On a large map, the IG seemed to be doing fine in the previous betas.

#45 Malkor

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Posted 26 January 2006 - 01:31 AM

me vs Orks was in the FFA.

Watch the replay, gogogogo!

Edited by Malkor, 26 January 2006 - 01:32 AM.


#46 ThetaOrion

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Posted 26 January 2006 - 01:41 AM

The insane IG is a pathetic opponent, and should be doing better than me, not worse. I suck as a player and I rarely ever play, and I still can get a bunch of hellhounds long before the SM drop their first cult or IG even get tier2. I keep pressing to fix this, but no one seems to listen.


Okay, I was thinking that you were talking you as IG vs Orks here at the insane setting. But, maybe it was you as IG vs Chaos SM Cultists? A couple of times there, I couldn't figure out what you were talking about, I guess.

But, I'm interested in knowing the full details of the present and future 1.65 Beta 4 games where the IG is a pathetic opponent and where the problem hasn't been fixed. I'm wanting to know if the IG AI are better opponents in Beta 4 or not. The IG AI seemed to be doing fine on the large maps all the way along. It's the smaller maps where the IG were broken and pathetic opponents in the previous 1.65 Betas. I'm wondering if their pathetic nature has changed in Beta 4.

#47 Malkor

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Posted 26 January 2006 - 03:29 AM

Watch my replay.

#48 Zenoth

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Posted 26 January 2006 - 05:26 AM

Watch my replay.


I for one tried, but I get a "Sync-error" message just when it starts.

And, secondo, I must report a second crash.

That time, it happened in Bloodshed Alley (A 6 players map). Still at the Hard difficulty setting. It was a 3 Vs 3. Me (SM), one Eldar faction, and one IG faction. Against two Chaos and one Ork factions.

It crashed to the Desktop when I reached Tier 3, and I believe that pretty much all the A.I factions were also there, with their respective avatar units.

So, that was a second crash for me with Beta 4, while it never crashed before. As for graphics drivers go (like Quietdeath mentioned), in my case, I am using the very same one than I did with 1.60 up to now, which is ATi's official Catalyst 5.10. It shouldn't be related to the drivers, but an actual in-code malfunction.

And the more I see the crashes ... and the more I indeed start to think that it might be directly related to the Eldar A.I. I'm still not 100% certain, but both crashes had the Eldar present. And when I play without them, I never experience crashes.

#49 Malkor

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Posted 26 January 2006 - 07:15 AM

Did you guys ever fix the eldar vehicle jump crash thing? When they tried to jump into cliffs and stuff? That might be what's going on.

#50 ArkhanTheBlack

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Posted 26 January 2006 - 06:48 PM

Yes, I also think it's the new jump code for non melee units. I hoped that the CanJump(...) method check detects such critical locations, but if the jumps are really the reason for the crahes, then it doesn't work and I'll have to reduce the jump positions to 100% legal positions (strategic points, squad positions, etc.).

#51 LarkinVB

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Posted 26 January 2006 - 06:56 PM

If I remember correctly you can use self.squad_ai:CanJumpToPosition() to check if a position is valid. I use it for evasion called within function Tactic:CompassMove( maxd )

It never crashed there.

Edited by LarkinVB, 26 January 2006 - 06:57 PM.


#52 ArkhanTheBlack

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Posted 26 January 2006 - 10:33 PM

This is exactly the function is use (I couldn't remember the exact name). If this function works, then the crash must have another reason.

I'll investigate this as soon as I'm finished with restructuring the code. Thud will send me a specific race mod soon, which I will try to include. That's the key test! If it works, then I've succeeded in separating the code. I'm very exited about this... :sleep:

#53 ThetaOrion

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Posted 27 January 2006 - 01:12 AM

Malkor Wrote, "Watch the replay, gogogogo!"

--

Okay, I too get the sync-error with that Ork FFA replay. I only got the sync-error in the past when I was trying to watch an older replay with a newer version of the game.

Malkor, are you sure you are using 1.41 of Winter Assault and 1.65Beta 4?

In the past, trying the game over and over again usually made the sync-error go away or synced it up. But, I can't force or coax Malkor's save to sync-up or adjust. Sometimes, a newer mod will put an older mod version replay out of sync. I also tried running the replay with Plain Vanilla 1.41 AI, which has worked for me in the past to keep some of the AI Mod Replays from hanging or freezing. But, Malkor's save won't sync up in Plain Vanilla 1.41 either, and that should have worked.

It's like he is running on a whole other version of the game.

Edited by ThetaOrion, 27 January 2006 - 01:12 AM.


#54 Malkor

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Posted 27 January 2006 - 01:19 AM

Could it be because I paused/alt tabbed a lot?

#55 ThetaOrion

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Posted 27 January 2006 - 01:36 AM

Back to Beta 4:

I'm new to betatesting for this mod, but so far, most of these betas have felt like two steps forward and one step back, which is as it should be. But, Beta 4 is the version that feels like two steps back and only one step forward, which also should happen once in awhile. I understand that. BUT, I really can't continue the Castle Assault Challenge with Beta 4, since the enemy AI Chaos Raptors (and I assume the enemy Assault marines) don't fly over the gates like they do in all previous versions of the game. I would have to go back to a previous version of the 1.65 Beta, Beta 3 or before, or to 1.60 in order to fairly continue the Castle Assault Challenge.

The Castle Assault Challenge is not the same challenge in Beta 4 that it was in the previous versions of the game. The HARD AI doesn't fight as hard in the Beta 4.

Therefore, it's hard to tell whether Malkor's IG problems that haven't been fixed are the result of Beta 4's softness or whether the IG problems he is reporting are the result of the IG still being broken. It's hard to interpret the signals, though, I do indeed imagine watching the replay might have given some clues if the replay would have synced up.

--
||
--

SECOND MESSAGE POSTED:

Could it be because I paused/alt tabbed a lot?


I don't think so. Your replay fails to sync up right from the opening second, and I imagine it was awhile before you started pausing and Alt-tabbing.

Is there more than one version of the Penal Colony Map? Maybe you are running on a different version of the map -- that would cause a sync error!!

Maybe you are playing on an older DoW version of the map, and we are using the WA version of the map, or vice versa. I'm just stabbing in the dark here.

I don't know why it isn't working.

EDIT:
Malkor: You could also try downloading your own replay, unraring it, and then put it over the top of the other copy of the replay and try viewing it yourself. If it doesn't sync up for you either, then it's either a corrupted save or a corrupted rar. Save your old replay, though, if you do this, just in case it ends up being a corrupted rar and not a corrupted save.

Edited by ThetaOrion, 27 January 2006 - 01:37 AM.


#56 Malkor

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Posted 27 January 2006 - 02:44 AM

I have no custom anything but the AI mod installed, so I have no idea what could be doing it.

Downloaded replay works fine for me.

#57 ThetaOrion

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Posted 27 January 2006 - 05:13 AM

Mountain Trails map.
HARD setting 1.65 Beta4
My Revelatory Layout - Me as Chaos, Ork AI ally, IG enemy and SM enemy.

Theme for the Game:
Pick a distant hill and have a Family Reunion -- aka Gathering Problems.

My Ork AI Ally found the IG and attacked, but my Ork AI ally were lost for the rest of the game. They just picked a hill and stood there doing nothing but having a picnic and catching up on old times.

The SM AI enemy picked the central Control Point as the location for their picnic. And, they did absolutely nothing to come and help when their base was being overrun by me.

Every AI was locked into gathering mode for the last half of the game.

The only thing that was right was the fact that the IG didn't send one TechPriest after another in a direct line to my turrets.

The AI did its rush, but it was even less effective than the last time they tried it. A rather disappointing game all the way round, unless you are into long family reunions.

Yes, something is really wrong with Beta 4. It's not just the IG who stand around and do nothing after the opening Tiers of the game on a small map. It's the whole AI, as far as I can tell. They are all locked into gathering mode after the opening rush comes to an end.

See the replay, as Malkor says. Let's hope it doesn't produce Sync Errors for everyone.

--

EDIT: Removed Attachment

Edited by ThetaOrion, 07 February 2006 - 07:24 AM.


#58 ThetaOrion

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Posted 27 January 2006 - 10:02 AM

I played FFA on the Mountain Trails Map as Chaos against 3 other Eldar AI factions.

The final Eldar Faction could have wiped me off the map if they would have just attacked. Instead, they gathered and waited for me to attack. They refused to attack me. The only time they attacked me was when I entered their territory and started wiping out their buildings. I was getting slaughtered, but once I got back into my territory, they retreated instead of finishing me off.

I rebuilt my army a half dozen times, because the remaining Eldar AI army was that powerful, but that army refused to leave their territory. And they were afraid of turrets, even though they could have wiped me out completely if they would have just done so instead of gathering or picnicing in the center of the map and/or refusing to leave their territory. The final faction of Eldar was locked into defense mode after the opening tiers of the game. They wouldn't attack or leave their territory.

#59 Zenoth

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Posted 27 January 2006 - 11:04 AM

Yep ThetaOrion, as I reported.

Gathering problems.

It's unique to Beta 4.

And I believe mesures will be taken for the next build regarding the issue, because we can't let a "final" build go with it still there. Personally I consider the malfunction a critical issue, as well as the crashing problems that seem to be caused by the Eldar.

#60 ThetaOrion

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Posted 27 January 2006 - 11:15 AM

Yep, I'm late and last confirming it because I was busy with the Castle Assault Challenge when Beta 4 came out.

But, each of my recent Mountain Trail games only confirms the gathering problems.



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