73 replies to this topic

[ThetaOrion]

It's kind of sad that Thudo is disappointed and frustrated by the feedback, because with Beta 5 and Beta 6, everything is back to normal. I'm finally losing half the games again. The games play out exactly as I expect them to play out following the 1.41 imblances that are built into the game. Everything is back to normal. It was the previous betas that were frustrating to me.

But, here my list of requested fixes for Beta 6:

1) Make sure that each faction can build its Titan, Uber, or Avatar.

2) With the Imperial Guard, always produce two or three Tier 2 tanks before replacing a lost Commander or a lost Commissar. Really simple, and it will do a lot for the AI. OR, don't replace lost Command Squad or lost Commissars until you are in Tier 3 and/or have lots of reserve funds. If the IG loses its Command Squad, it's Commissars, or its Tier 1 Guardsmen, let them remain lost for awhile and move on to Tier 2 Tanks instead. In fact, I would wait until you get to Tier 3 before replacing lost Commissars and the lost Commander or the Command Squad. If you wait until Tier 3 to replace lost IG Commanders and lost IG Commissars, this will force the AI to move into Tier 2 and produce tanks instead of wasting time and resources producing one Commissar after another and/or one Commander after another. Produce Tier Two and Tier Three Tanks and Kaskyrkin and Ogryns, instead of continuously replacing the Tier 1 Commander and the Tier 1 Commissar when they die. In other words, produce your first Command Squad and your 3 Commissars and attach them up, and then turn the Commissars and the Command Squad into Tier 3 units, so that they won't be replaced when lost until you get to Tier 3.

3) Give the Ork AI the Squiggoth as quickly as possible. Realize that unless you rebalance the game or put back the Ork's starting squad, the Orks are always going to lose the most on average, if everything is as it should be and the AI Mod is working properly. But, also realize that giving the Orks a Squiggoth is the only thing that will give them a fighting chance at Tier 4 of defending and holding out against Tier 4 SM or Tier 4 Eldar. The 1.41 Plain Vanilla Orks will always lose at Tier 4, but they will last a bit longer with a Squiggoth. And, just imagine what the Orks might accomplish if they were the first on the map to get to Tier 4 and the first to get their Uber Titan Avatar, the Squiggoth!

4) Look into the Orks. They are turtling or retreating to their base when their AI enemies are reaching Tier Four. I believe that the Orks retreat and turtle up because they can't produce or compete with Tier 4 SM and Tier 4 Eldar, especially since the Orks can't produce their own Tier 4 stuff in the current AI Mod.

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Finally, to give you some perspective, if I want to win with Plain Vanilla 1.41 or want a guaranteed win with 1.41 Plain Vanilla, I put the Orks and the Imperial Guard on the other team, and I play as the Chaos, Eldar, or Space Marines. That's the way it is, and that's the way it will be with the AI Skirmish Mod too, if the AI Skirmish Mod is working right -- unless you start doing rebalance work in the AI Skirmish Mod.

This is all with a human in the mix. I imagine that things are quite different AI vs AI, and that's why I never play AI vs AI.

Edited by ThetaOrion, 06 February 2006 - 09:30 AM.

[Zenoth]

I've just played in Mountain Trails.

It was a 4 Vs 4 (Me, as Chaos, with Ork ally, against Eldar and IG).

I've lost that battle.

I'll certainly go with what ThetaOrion says about the Orks. They are quite ... not efficient. There might be imbalances that Arkhan/Thudo/Larkin couldn't change for the best via scripting, but I believe there may still be something they can do related to their behavior.

The Orks "turtled" around the Critical Location that's located on the west edge of the map, while their base was getting blown to dust by the Imperial Guard, and later by the same groups of Eldar that just passed by my main base and destroyed it earlier.

I saw the Eldar's Avatar and the IG's Baneblade, and the Avatar especially appeared earlier than the Baneblade, which suprised me. I could produce enough vehicles and troops to keep defending my base and even push the enemies back. But as soon as the Avatar arrived, along with a Seer Council attached to the Farseer, plus some other troops, I just couldn't do anything.

I only had four or five Defilers, two groups of Berserkers and a Chaos Lord. They died fast enough, and of course the Avatar did most of the job.

Technically speaking, I haven't lost because of the lack of Ork's support, but because I never ever expected to fight against an Avatar that early into the game.

As for the Orks, they definitely lost because they did nothing when their base was under attack. They did respond but only when they themselves were around the base. But as soon as that group of Killa Kans and Storm Boyz went for the west Critial Location, for no reasons (it was already theirs), then they remained idle there, while their base was clearly going down.

And I don't recall having seen them actually attack the Imperial Guards in their base.

And, as a side note, I always play with Resource Sharing Off. Or almost. I think the last time it was On was even before I entered the testers team.

I need to do more tests, but I see one thing that's quite obvious right now, the Orks behave strangely.

The balance issues are another story though. But their very behavior is part of the mod's goal, to make them seem more intelligent and efficient via smart coding, and to make them act with organization and coordination. Well there might be something to still look at in that department.

[ThetaOrion]

I got a good feeling those commands are what's altering the AI's performance. I know for a fact that even the slightest change in general atmosphere will COMPLETELY alter any game's AI performance. The game speed in particular is something that could be diversly effecting the AI's "logic" calculating.

It's not just at change in speed, though hyper-speed can make a difference in the outcome because the AI doesn't have time to think. I always thought that the AI code for the Space Marines was infinitely better and infinitely more polished than the rushed AI code for the IG for example. Now take that inequality to hyperspeed and accentuate it. Or slow it down and give the IG code a chance to think and compensate for its sloppyness.

But, there's more to it than speed.

The human player gets a different balance that the AI gets. Play some of those huge maps as the human player, capture all the resource points you can and build listening posts, and then quit when you get to Tier 4 right before the real fighting starts. You will notice that all of the AI is out-producing you, even if you have captured the most Resource Points. The AI gets more resources per listening post than the human player gets.

Then all of those wonderful triggers that are based on army size that Arkhan was talking about go out the window when the human is mucking about and doing wierd unpredictable stuff, and all those stats get delayed or accelerated in their timing instead of coming off in clock-like efficiency.

If you notice on the big maps, the AI ally gets the best or largest boost in production, the AI enemy next, and then the human player last. There's three separate balances there, when a human is in the mix. My AI allies always outproduce everyone on average, followed up by the AI enemies, and me the lonely human has the lowest production even if I have the most resource points per capita. This is all before the real fighting starts. If one side or the other starts losing, then the AI on the losing side goes down in production and can end up with lower production stats at the end of the game. But, the AI has a different production balance than the human has, and I do believe that the AI allies are given a slight production boost that the AI enemies don't seem to get. Three different production balances there when there is a human in the mix.

I imagine that AI vs AI, the production balances are all equal, because who is really the allied AI and who is really the enemy AI? Thus, everything comes off like clockwork on Thudo's tests, but it has nothing to do with a real world game where there is a human in the mix.

Some of these AI's work better as AI allies, and some of them only shine when they are AI enemies. But, that shift in distinction only comes into play if there is a human in the mix. There's a lot more going on there and getting mucked up when there is a human in the mix than Thudo is giving credit for.

Also, I the devious Eldar player do dozens of things that the AI can never do. I do those things to win, and I win. Thudo never sees any of that devious winning stuff while watching AI vs AI. The Eldar AI can be rather disappointing in fact, mostly because they can't do half the stuff that a human playing Eldar can do.

The IG AI can't bunker down and doesn't seem to take advantage of heavy cover. But, throw a human in the mix and suddenly those perfectly balanced games Thudo is witnessing go out the window. Suddenly the IG are good, where the IG AI is only mediocre.

Finally, the AI in Beta 6 unites and converges on the human player. That will never happen in Thudo's and Arkhan's tests where there is no human in the mix. Then things play out all orderly and appear balanced.

A human in the mix provides a completely different game.

[ThetaOrion]

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I need to do more tests, but I see one thing that's quite obvious right now, the Orks behave strangely.

Yes, I suggested that they look at the Orks in the previous betas as well. It's just that in Beta 4, the Orks looked like gods when the Space Marines went out for lunch and camped in the center of the map.

Beta 6 is really good. They just don't know how good it is. I was getting used to winning quickly and easily at the HARD setting with the previous betas on Mountain Trails and me as Chaos with Ork ally, vs IG and SM. I can't win that one now, with Beta 6 and Beta 5. The Space Marines are no longer turtling or doing stupid stuff like they were doing in the previous Betas.

Everything is back to normal now!! It's the previous Betas that were the real aberrations!!

I need to see how the Chaos AI is doing in Beta 6 -- I imagine it does its 1.41 plain vanilla spam really well using its inherent production advantage that you don't get if you play the Chaos as the human player. It sounds like the Eldar AI is doing fine, putting its Avatar as fast as the Space Marines do.

It sounds like the Ork AI is now the most broke of the AI's, followed up slightly by the IG AI. The IG just need a better build order that doesn't get stuck into Tier 1 Commanders and Commissars.

Zenoth, did your AI ally produce a Squiggoth? If not, then the Orks need more attention than we originally thought -- though I wasn't seeing Squiggoth in some of the previous betas either.

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Ever since 1.41 came out, I have had kind of a standing rule of thumb:

If I want to lose or if I want a hard game, then I put Orks and IG in there as my AI allies, and I put SM and/or Chaos on the opposing team.

This is the way it should be if the AI Mod is working properly and/or working in accord with 1.41 imbalances.

It's just that I was winning easily with Ork AI allies on the Mountain Trails Map with Beta Four, and that is NOT how it should be. Something was really wrong there in Beta 4!!

Oh well, I think that I have said what I needed to say. So, now it's time to stop playing and get back to work. I just wanted to make sure that I addressed Thudo's complaints and frustrations.

Edited by ThetaOrion, 06 February 2006 - 09:04 AM.

[Zenoth]

Nope, no Squiggoth from my Ork ally.

But I do not blame the scripting itself for that. Too much variants right now can affect the production of a uber unit, as Arkhan/Thudo said.

I do want to suggest something though ...

Would it be possible to make it so that as soon as the Ork can technically produce a Squiggoth they train it ?

It's important to note here than I am not asking to tech-rush to the Squiggoth. But simply that once they arrive to it via "normal" teching, as they do right now perhaps, then they immediately train it if they have enough resources, or immediately save res for it.

Well ... even then ... maybe they would actually need to tech-rush their way to the Squiggoth, since I agree with Theta that the Orks are quite weak in late games especially against the Space Marines indeed, and that probably the only "guaranteed" way they have to stand their ground is to produce a Squiggoth as soon as they can, instead of waiting for it too long.

[ThetaOrion]

In 1.41 of Plain Vanilla, the Orks (and IG) had a morale problem and would retreat and turtle up in the face of superior odds, like Tier 4 SM or Tier 4 Eldar. The same thing is happening in Beta 6, with the Orks at least.

Everything is back to normal in Beta 6 . . . except the Orks aren't building their Squiggoth.

Yes, I think the Orks should rush to Squiggoth.

The 1.41 Plain Vanilla Orks were building Squiggoth, so that problem shouldn't be due to inherent game imbalances, and should instead be an AI Mod issue.

The inherent problem where Squiggoth is concerned is where the Squiggoth got trapped in its base and couldn't get out. I saw some of that in some of the previous betas, when these betas were last doing Squiggoth.

I don't know where we lost the Squiggoth, but he has been missing for awhile now in the AI Mod.

[Zenoth]

Everything is back to normal in Beta 6 . . . except the Orks aren't building their Squiggoth.

I'd also add that the Ork's behavior in late games (especially starting at Tier 3) is strange.

There's something ... missing. They aren't aggressive. I feel something changed only from Beta 5 to this build with the Orks. As in, their "desire" to attack. They seem to tech up as usual, they build structures in good numbers. Well, they act almost like they did before ... but there's definitely something wrong. I know I should try to provide some technical examples, but it really ends up being their attack behavior.

It looks to me like they simply refuse to attack from a certain point.

It also makes me remember the "gathering" issue in Beta 4. But this time in a way that's more subtle.

Perhaps Arkhan fixed the gathering issue with all races except he might have forgot something with the Orks (confirmation Arkhan ?).

I mean, I remember loosing to the Orks back in Beta 2 and 3. And I'd say this build is technically the best so far, but I repeat, the Orks are currently suffering from something I can't quite explain with technical terms at the moment, since I may need to test further to make sure what I experience with or against the Orks isn't just happening to me through some really bad luck.

Edited by Zenoth, 06 February 2006 - 10:04 AM.

[ArkhanTheBlack]

The orks use exactly the same code parts for attack than the other races. Since all races attack more efficient in beta 6+, I think the orks as the weakest 1.41 race are the victims of this change. They suffer higher losses than the other races and therefore have less troops available which automatically reduces the chance to attack.
The only thing I noticed, is that their melee troops, especially the nobs, quiet often seem to prefer ranged instead of melee. I don't know why, but it's definetly not new. I also observed this with melee units of other races, but it's more important for the orks than to the other races. Anyway, this is hardcoded in Relics engine, therefore I've no influence on that.

[ThetaOrion]

It's there in the replay I sent Arkhan and Thudo.

The Orks play normally, attack the IG enemy, and then help defend my failing base, but then when the Space Marine AI hit's Tier 4, it's as if the Orks know they can't win and they retreat into their base and go into pure defense mode.

The Orks basically refused to attack the Space Marines all along. It's as if the Ork AI knows all along that it can't take the Space Marines so it doesn't even try.

In the previous Betas, Beta 4 particularly, the Orks overran the Space Marines in the exact same scenario, because the Space Marines were buggy and picnicking. But, now the Space Marines are back, and everything is pretty much playing out 1.41 Plain Vanilla, though:

1) It would have been nice if the Orks would have attacked the Space Marines after the IG enemy died.
2) If the Orks would have gone straight to Squiggoth, then they might have had the courage in Tier 4 to attack.
3) But, the Orks lost a contended resource point early in the game, and never recapped it and it sat empty, and thus the Space Marines were ahead of them the whole game, and the Orks refused to attack the SM, and the Space Marines when they counter-attacked went for the human player first, so the Orks and the SM bases were never really attacked by each other after the opening minutes of the game.
4) The Ork AI just knew all the way along that it couldn't take the Space Marines, so it didn't even try -- 'automatically reducing the chance to attack' all the way along as Arkhan says.

So, you just know from 1.41 that Orks without Squiggoth were automatically going to lose to Tier 4 Space Marines once I as Chaos was dead. I quit the game.

[Finaldeath]

Shouldn't old beta threads be locked?

I'll put forward my ideas for Ork's later, I'm not a particularly great player with them, but can somewhat get somewhere with the killa kanz and vehicles, heh. Will get the new beta though.

Maybe a new thread on Ork AI should be created?

[ThetaOrion]

FinalDeath:

On this forum, Thudo lets us go Stream-of-Consciousness, which means that we are permitted to go off topic when and where we want. We just go where the interests and concerns take us, whick kind of means that nothing gets locked or shut down.

The Beta 7 Thread, the wish list or work list for Beta 7 is turning into an Ork AI thread naturally or spontaneously, because in Beta 7 we want Arkhan and Thudo to do a little more work on the Ork AI. It's all stream of consciousness and travelling off topic, but Thudo said in the intros to all of this that going off-topic is permitted. We talk about what we want to talk about when we want to talk about it and where it makes sense to do so.

So, right now the Beta 7 Topic is morphing into the Ork AI thread:

http://forums.revora...showtopic=28579

because most of us want Arkhan and Thudo to take a look at the Ork AI in Beta 7.

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Sometimes Arkhan, and some of the rest of us go back to those old Beta Threads and put capstones or checkmarks on them, so we really don't want them locked. Threads die out naturally around here when they are no longer wanted or needed.

A little different here than maybe what you are used to over there on the Relic Forum. Just go with it.

Edited by ThetaOrion, 07 February 2006 - 01:58 AM.

[Finaldeath]

Heh, you can also, you know, split topics

Makes things easier to find is all, ThetaOrion. Splits the bug reports ("this crashes") from the other issues ("orks are doing things wrong"). This is 4 pages long.

Not exactly saying you should change your ways, but might let the AI coders see the problems more easily. But don't start a post debate about this here, since you yourself said its how it goes at the moment.

Edited by Finaldeath, 07 February 2006 - 01:59 AM.

[ThetaOrion]

Well, we did split out the Ork AI topic when Arkhan created the wish list or work list for Beta 7. The Ork AI topic got split out then.

Here, this Beta 6 thread will either die now, or some of us will keep coming back and making other observations about our personal Beta 6 testings if we test and come up with something new that needs looking at or mentioning.

For example, if I run into anything wierd in my future Beta 6 tests, I will mention it here and maybe post a future Beta 6 replay here. Beta 6 ain't dead yet. We have yet to hear from Excedrin and QuietDeath about their impressions of Beta 6 -- they always come up with something a day or two later that the rest of us overlook, so we don't want to close out the Beta 6 thread.

And this thread was also Beta 5 in the beginning. Thudo didn't split the Beta 6 release from the Beta 5, this time around, which indeed is making this thread rather long.

But, it will all be different next time around.

[ThetaOrion]

Beta 6 --

I just finished Mountain Trails 2vs2 as Space Marines with Eldar AI ally against 2 Chaos AI at HARD setting.

The Chaos are still broken in Beta 6.

The Chaos AI are picnicking in the center of the map while I destroy their bases.

The Eldar AI ally harrassed and kept me safe while I powered up, but I don't know if the Eldar AI ally tried to recapture any of the listening posts that they lost.

The Space Marines are awesome, even if it is a lowly human player playing them!!

EDIT:

Removed the Attachment

Edited by ThetaOrion, 08 February 2006 - 12:18 AM.