110 replies to this topic

[ArkhanTheBlack]

This approach would need some more checks:

1.) Those conditions can't be fullfilled if the AI has lost HQ and all builders but owns vehicle-building and/or barracks (Happens quiet often on Kasyr Luthien since I modified the building placement under threat!)

2.) There's no need to wait if there's no enemy force close to the AI base. Maybe a GetThreat() with range 100 and min threat ~1000 dependent on tier level.

BTW, IsBaseBeingAttacked() is buggy and therefore not used anymore in the code.

[LarkinVB]

1.) True. But in this case defending the mess won't hurt.

2.) 100 isn't enough as the AI with damaged base will eventually start attack positions far away and won't be back in time. I think it should stay until all is fixed. No need not to wait.

IsBaseBeingAttacked() buggy ??? Not here afaik. Do you have details ?

Edited by LarkinVB, 10 February 2006 - 09:55 PM.

[ArkhanTheBlack]

IsBaseBeingAttacked() buggy ??? Not here afaik. Do you have details ?

Well, IsBaseBeingAttacked() is buggy because player_stats:GetBases() is buggy!
player_stats:GetBases() is the most deadly Relic bug I know because it returns allied bases as well. It was responsible for the AI tech traps because sometimes AIs thought that they had tier 2, because they checked their allies HW instead their own.

But that's only part of the fun. The defend strategy used it as well and I had chaos lords running to an allied base because it was attacked by a scout squad. The defend strategy thought it's the home base and it has to defend it.

Now, the super clue was the buildbasestrategy using it to force defensive stance when the home base is being attacked. This problem messed some complete maps like soul forge up. An AI was attacked, and all alllied AI's were trapped in defensive behaviour, because they thought their own base was attacked. I discovered that as I tweaked the SL AI.

I can promise you, this function got me grey hairs...

[LarkinVB]

I did know that it counts allied bases as well but couldn't find a big problem with this. I use the fact to help allies defend if it is a 'priority base' (either hq or in 60 range). Don't know soul forge map and can't comment on that.

But who cares. I guess you found a good solution and I will use 1.7 as base for DoWpro. Thanks for that.

[Zenoth]

Hey guys (Larkin/Arkhan/Thudo) I got a question.

Is "Stronghold relocation" supported in the A.I ?

As in ... a main base is being overrun, and its complete destruction is inevitable, but the faction in question still has plenty (or sufficient) resources to relocate (considering that one or more worker units could get out of the mess and reach a safer location), and decides to relocate to a specific spot. It'd be up to the surviving worker unit to actually build a Stronghold that was dropped far away at the safe location in question, to get a new hope of getting a new army ready before the main base is completely destroyed.

The thing is ... how to code the A.I to make it so the A.I actually "knows that its doom is imminent and must relocate to avoid being defeated in just a matter of minutes".

I was thinking about something like: After x amount of time during game-play (let's pretend it starts at Tier 3, the code in question kicks in), then if number of controlled/owned Listening Posts = only 1, then A.I considers relocating. Consider, as in "checks how many vehicles production structures is left", if number of such structures = only 1 but had two or three before, then number of variants needed to relocate = higher, up to a point that the required number of variants is met, so the relocate proceedure starts (as in saving res for that if not available, or simply do it if available).

Other variants could be "tech center = gone" (which usually means your base is under attack and about to be history). As a mere example. But it could be other things.

Well, is it supported ?

If not, could it be ?

I'm asking, because right now, the A.I sometimes builds a new Stronghold in another faction's base.

That's all right. Well maybe not ...

Because what I notice when a faction builds a new Stronghold in an allied base, is that it doesn't take advantage of that new location right away. It leaves the new Stronghold there, and it's taking dust.

The worker that just built the new Stronghold, for example, could right away build one generator nearby, and one infantry structure, and then leave to the main base again.

Because as it stands right now (Stronghold relocation) is quite useless (in my opinion), since when it happens, the main base is still there and going strong. Creating a new Stronghold "just in case your main base goes boom", but too early, well that wastes 600+ Requisition points right there.

Personally, I'd prefer to see such a "Stronghold relocation" behavior only if needed, but still that should happen in a moment during game-play that wouldn't be too late. As in the faction decides to relocate when the only remaining structure in the main base is a half-destroyed Stronghold without any worker units or any units left at all. It should be before of course, when perhaps the variants I am suggesting are met. All that only could be applied after some amount of time after Tier 3 (suggestion).

Or maybe the faction that's about to get destroyed simply gives you, or to all other allies present all their remaining resources before going to the after life.

Edited by Zenoth, 11 February 2006 - 01:22 AM.

[thudo]

Is "Stronghold relocation" supported in the A.I ?

Short answer: No. Skirmish AI cannot use Building abilities like it cannot use a Scout's Infiltrate. Wish it could. Relic knows about it and hoping we get some resolution there.

As for the AI leaving an unmarked HQ in an ally's base. Thats a good thing. I wouldn't start building stuff in my ally's base. Why? He would always get pissed off as I'm taking his build room. The "second HQ in an ally's base" is meant for insurance.

[ArkhanTheBlack]

Hmm, maybe I misunderstood the question, but I think the AI is already doing that since beta 7 if I remember right. If the home base is under fire, they try to build buildings at distant locations. The main problem is that the worker often dies before he can rebuild an HQ.

[Zenoth]

Hmm, maybe I misunderstood the question, but I think the AI is already doing that since beta 7 if I remember right. If the home base is under fire, they try to build buildings at distant locations. The main problem is that the worker often dies before he can rebuild an HQ.

I see.

Well, would it be possible to do as I suggested ?

For example, right now, a worker usually builds a second Stronghold in one of his allied base.

But the problem (in my opinion), as I said, is that right after that they go back to their main base, and leave the new Stronghold taking up dust.

So, what I suggest, is to make it so the same worker that just built a second Stronghold also immediately builds let's say ... one Turret, one Infantry structure and one Power Generator. And also, while we're at it, to immediately upgrade the new Stronghold to at least level 1.

So that when the main base is really being overrun and about to go byebye, then all the basic structures to get a new army are ready. What'd be left to do in that secondary base would be to build more Generators, maybe one vehicles structure, and complete the upgrades.

Simply said, once a worker goes and build a second Stronghold, then he should also take that opportunity to build other basic structures right after the Stronghold is completed, of course around that new Stronghold. But if there's not enough space for a single building in the available radius, then just too bad.

That way, if the main base is under attack, they wouldn't have to try to get out of the mess alive to reach the secondary base, since everything needed for get basic stuff, including new workers, would have been built earlier.

[thudo]

Zenoth - while thats laudable thats also not a good way to treat your ally. Let face it: if I had my ally building a new base in MY territory I would be like: "guy, what gives? Yer using my space.. now I can't build". I would sooner he built his secondary base NOT near my HQ but at the farthest point from the enemy but near his own startpoint. Thats what I would tell him.

Also, having him build secondary assets around that second HQ must only occur if he has a surplus of coin.

Which brings me back to why he has a second HQ. You do realize the REAL STEEP requirments to have one? They are titannic. If the AI can build a second HQ he must be doing SUPER GOOD in the game so it becomes a real moot point anyway.

[Zenoth]

Zenoth - while thats laudable thats also not a good way to treat your ally. Let face it: if I had my ally building a new base in MY territory I would be like: "guy, what gives? Yer using my space.. now I can't build". I would sooner he built his secondary base NOT near my HQ but at the farthest point from the enemy but near his own startpoint. Thats what I would tell him.

Also, having him build secondary assets around that second HQ must only occur if he has a surplus of coin.

Which brings me back to why he has a second HQ. You do realize the REAL STEEP requirments to have one? They are titannic. If the AI can build a second HQ he must be doing SUPER GOOD in the game so it becomes a real moot point anyway.

Yep indeed. And actually I agree.

But I find it ... too easy, to completely wipe out a faction simply by destroying its main base. And I'm refering to A.I factions. Not humans.

As you said, it isn't really cool to see a human player come into your main base and take up some of the available space ... but ... that wouldn't be cool from a human, since a human can think more intelligently. He/she should find a safer spot elsewhere, but not too far from your base, because when the enemy destroys your allied's base, all the units in that place will gather up and then all be at your door in any moment after that (let's presume there's only you and your ally, no others on your side). Well, having your ally not so far from you, already building most of his army back, and ready to help you right away in no time, or you to help him in no time, both of you producing units at about the same pace will really give a hard time for the attacking forces to break through two factions, instead of just one faction plus an extra Stronghold sitting there doing nothing but getting Scouts and Workers to help you.

That's my whole point.

I agree with you when it comes to on-line games.

But when it comes to A.I ... well, personally I'd find it nice to at least try it for one or two builds, or one public version, and then take it out if people gets annoyed by that feature.

If not, then no biggy, I can sure live without such A.I behavior. In fact I don't really care.

But it just ... you know, came into my mind "hey ... why not suggest to make it so it's harder to get rid of a specific A.I faction, let's make it so he has some nice chances to get a second chance per say and rebuilds some basic base just in case his main one goes boom".

Edited by Zenoth, 11 February 2006 - 04:08 AM.

[Finaldeath]

thudo, strongholds don't require any use of control areas, so why not have a base built somewhere just outside an allies base.

also, you don't play with very friendly people if they lay a smackdown of a base inside the centre of yours. To the side is always fine, especially on maps made with this in mind (plenty of build space or "sides" of the map).

I'm glad the AI builds secondary HQ's especially on team games (since I know the code will force one to be built in teir 3 if they have enough resources - but maybe this is too late, heh). Shame the AI isn't too good at keeping builders alive

Heh, you could keep a single builder (out of the usual 3/4 available) away from fights at the "secondary HQ possible location" if the main base is under attack. Meh, it might cost them some build time (as in 3 builders build something faster then 2) but who knows if it'd work well.

I'll get into testing some stuff perhaps. Its interesting to see the AI do things humans would instinctivly do (if a good player!).

[thudo]

Beta8 is now up for Internal Testing.

DO NOT TEST ON FUNKY MAPS! The last thing this f**ing project needs is to cater to some boneheaded map with bloody bizzare customized scripts. The AI has a hard enough time adapting to strange user-created setups. We DO NOT and will NOT support all configurations - thats impossible and not feasible.

Sick and Bloody tired of this move toward unknown maps. WE NEED A FOUNDATION to ensure the Official Maps work well with the AI and then.. MAYBE we will springboard elsewhere. However, Official Maps MUST be tested first to ensure consistency and a solid base. Thanks all!

[Malkor]

Beta8 is now up for Internal Testing.

DO NOT TEST ON FUNKY MAPS! The last thing this f**ing project needs is to cater to some boneheaded map with bloody bizzare customized scripts. The AI has a hard enough time adapting to strange user-created setups. We DO NOT and will NOT support all configurations - thats impossible and not feasible.

Sick and Bloody tired of this move toward unknown maps. WE NEED A FOUNDATION to ensure the Official Maps work well with the AI and then.. MAYBE we will springboard elsewhere. However, Official Maps MUST be tested first to ensure consistency and a solid base. Thanks all!

Didn't have your coffee this morning?

I only test on penal colony/doom chamber, really. I don't even have any custom maps, yet.

[Zenoth]

Testing Report #1

Map: Mountain Trail
Number of players: 4
Factions played against: Chaos & Orks
Game rules: Annihilate
Difficulty: Hard
Resources sharing: Off
Resources rate: High
Who won: Enemies

Comments:: I noticed a major gathering problem at the West Critical Location. That CL was first controlled by the Orks. And, eventually the Imperial Guards captured it. Then, the Chaos took control of it, and the Imperial Guards all gathered at the location without capturing it.

I also noticed that the IG's Flag remained quite some time right under the Chaos Flag, after the Chaos controlled it. Then the IG Flag disappeared (I think it's the first time I see that). See for yourself in the replay if you guys do watch it.

I eventually died first (I played quite poorly for that one, my own defeat has nothing to do about the support of allies, or anything related to the A.I, I myself take the whole blame), and when my base was destroyed (even though I did try to relocate, but my workers were destroyed in their way) all the enemy units that focused on my base went for the Imperial Guards base, as usual.

Once the enemies arrived and started the assault on the IG base then the units that were gathering up at the Critical Location all remained there, and never went back to their base, nor ever tried to go elsewhere at all.

I think they were trying to capture the CL, but couldn't for some reason, and it made even vehicles gather up there as well, not just units that can actually capture a LP/CL. Weird ... it's also the first time I see that happening in Mountain Trails.

Here's a picture ...



Here's the replay ...

Edited by Zenoth, 11 February 2006 - 06:17 PM.

[thudo]

I used to see that too in older builds but not anymore. Arkhan did a bangup job correcting that. Thanks for testing OFFICIAL MAPS. Easier to determine the issues. Beta8 is out so please test again. Thanks guys!

Sorry for being mifted.. just after of what seems like weeks of constant "near nagging" it takes its toll. Been "bottled up" for a while.

[Malkor]

Take a break, thudo. No one's going to yell at you if you decide to cool off for a few days, or a week. Go out and eat some pie.

Edited by Malkor, 11 February 2006 - 06:32 PM.

[thudo]

I can't. This is my hobby. My passion. I failed at Generals/Zero Hour kuzz the inheritent AI system was beyond flawed (coupled with the fact EA blowz donkey ballz x 100,000 but I can't recarnate that old flame). There is soo much cool stuff coming down the pipe and I want all of you to be a part of it in your own ways. We just need to stay focused, keep things "to the level", and be "strength in team".

[Zenoth]

Hmm, Thudo, just so you know, that test I just did, that was with Beta 8.

[thudo]

That doesn't happen to me. Yer quite sure you don't have any other builds or mods conflicting? I have not seen the gathering bug since 1-2 builds back.

[Zenoth]

That doesn't happen to me. Yer quite sure you don't have any other builds or mods conflicting? I have not seen the gathering bug since 1-2 builds back.

Yes Thudo, I'm more than sure.

As I do everytime to make sure, I simply delete the "current" a.i folder, and then extract the most recently available Beta build.

And, the "gathering" issue I'm referering to, is nothing like the one I myself brought to the scene back during Beta 5/6. This time it's different. It was only the IG doing it, at a specific location.

The other famous gathering issue was affecting all A.I factions present during game, regardless of the map, official or not.