35 replies to this topic

[LarkinVB]

IG should build hellhound as first vehicle. It does build too many early sentinels. Played IG + eldar vs ork + necron. Latter were dominant due to new improved build orders.

Edited by LarkinVB, 24 April 2007 - 07:57 PM.

[LarkinVB]

As for the Necrons - all my games I play they always build Destroyers and H.Destroyers in abundance.

Early abundant destroyers ? I strongly doubt that. I'm not talking t3/4. But I get tired to repeat myself over and over again. So here it is for the last time :

1. Limit turrets/mines much much more.
2. Increase minimum army requirement in build programs as the AI has too few squads. My small necron changes made them much better. Still not optimized. Same for orks. Now they overwhelm enemies who are still trying to tech too fast.
3. Look what squads are build by pros. No IG is spamming sentinels. They start with early hellhounds, not basilisks. Necrons should use destroyers fast. Lots of them.

Thudo, I know you like the AI and it has all you need. But it can be 100% stronger by better build programs. Why not ?

[thudo]

IG suck regardless only until they get to Tier3. IG AI have a good balance of units now so the only way to get Hellhounds out early is a forced build but why when we were told to force Basilisks first? Ughh.. This can only go on so long. We can't win @ AI development as much as game developers trying to satisfy everyone these days.

[LarkinVB]

Whatever you like. Let one standard player and beta tester optimize one race and the AI will improve a lot. No urgent need for Arkhan. He laid the foundation which is very good. Now it is time to make build programs really usefull. I'm tired to pray this over and over again. See you for 2.4.

[thudo]

If I can coordinate this with Arkhan then yep its possible.

What were your small necron changes you made? I never saw script examples.

So now we should force Hellhounds out and Destoyers out? What happened back a month or 2 ago when the fashion was Basilisks? I did not realize Basilisks suck in DC 1.2 last I saw? Necron Destroyers can be forced out but right now they cost ALOT hence the reason the AI doesn't readily build them and if you are pressuring the AI with your attacks then expect compromises UNLESS we force build Destroyers on all buildprograms.

[LarkinVB]

Check page 1 for my post with necron code attachement. It made necrons win the matchup instead loosing. Hellhounds instead of basiliks is only one small improvement and should just be taken as an example. My orks changes made a difference and they were made in 30 minutes. Same for necron changes. Same can be done for every race. Even better if someone will invest 60 minutes.

No need to delay 2.3. But for 2.4 just let Inquisitor improve necron build order and you will see a difference. Explain the concept of build programms and assign one race to one beta tester. I will be happy to do chaos.

Edited by LarkinVB, 24 April 2007 - 08:27 PM.

[thudo]

Thanks Larkin.. I'll examine.. Sorry.. missed it.

I know Orks are complete. They are quite good now.
IG always needs improvements but I find they still win 50% of their games. IG AI creates a balanced force. Yes the first vehicles it creates are a Basilisk and Sentinel but we can change it so its first a Hellhound then a Basilisk.

I really don't see a need to enhance the SM, CSM, Tau or Eldar.. all these four seem perfect in terms of their buildprograms. Necrons, Orks, and IG always need something. Eldar had problems but they rock as best as one can expect now in terms of their buildprograms.

[LarkinVB]

I really don't see a need to enhance the SM, CSM, Tau or Eldar.. all these four seem perfect in terms of their buildprograms.

Perfect ? I beg to differ. I think there is a potential for at least a 25% performance improvement.

[Inquisitor]

I hate to interrupt you discussion, but I just thought of a suggestion for 2.4 or a later version:

It would be really nice if we could do something to the apparently inevitable stuck Necron units in the AI base. I have seen it almost every game involving Necrons: TS or Destroyers get stuck in the base. As I see it there are two things that can be done:

• Improve the placement of buildings, so that one side of the base is never a valid location, but as this may be nearly impossible to code, then
• When a unit is given a DoMove(...) its location should be cached and the next time it is given a location it should be compaired with the previous location. If its location is the same as the last time then the unit is marked as stuck (a boolean). If the unit is then given a DoMove(...) and the locations match and it IsStuck it should be simply be deleted. This solution would also "fix" units stuck to bad pathing (which sometimes happens on a lot of maps).

I have replays where 3 TS is stuck, and a replay where 5 Destroyers and a TS is stuck(!), so it is a serious problem, that should be addressed some time 'round. I know it's not simple and that it would require major design changes, but I just hope to contribute to this mod getting even better.

[ArkhanTheBlack]

1. Limit turrets/mines much much more.

Mines are already reduced and not built at all until T3 research is started. I won't change turrets since I disagree with you at this point. I can remember at least two tester reports who had to abort a rush because the AI had a turret.

2. Increase minimum army requirement in build programs as the AI has too few squads. My small necron changes made them much better. Still not optimized. Same for orks. Now they overwhelm enemies who are still trying to tech too fast.

We can increase the army size modifier a bit for each race. BTW, you can modify this value with the tech speed slider.

3. Look what squads are build by pros. No IG is spamming sentinels. They start with early hellhounds, not basilisks. Necrons should use destroyers fast. Lots of them.

Hmm, I'd like to hear a second opinion about that. Before DC 1.2 everyone said hellhounds suck and basilisks rule. Sentinels should come out after basilisks according to the build program. It was pretty much an accident...


BTW, I've made constantly changes to Necrons and Orcs according to your and Inquisitors suggestions. I added even an ork function which always builds slugga squads according to your suggestion for the next beta. Therefore I don't think it's necessary to be rude...

[LarkinVB]

I apologize if my suggestions sounded rude.

Let one standard player and beta tester optimize one race and the AI will improve a lot. No urgent need for Arkhan. He laid the foundation which is very good. Now it is time to make build programs really usefull.

I think this statement showed my respect for your work.

[ArkhanTheBlack]

Thanks Larkin, I know you just want the best for the mod...

As a personal note I mainly want to fix all bugs and major issues for 2.3 to get a stable build. After that I've nothing against a 2.4 optimization which isn't done by me. I've finals now in my studies and not that much time, further if I play DOW I'll play DOWXP, therefore the vanilla AI optimization is not really my main interest.
If you have the time and motivation you can make the AI optimizations for 2.4 with Thudo and/or some other testers. I won't interfere here. The only thing I don't want to be removed is the 4 build programs concept allround, ranged, melee and fast tech since this was always important feature for me.

[thudo]

@Inquisitor - we cannot control how buildings are arranged at the startpoint. We can "bias them" towards or away from the enemy but if you see Necron AI getting units stuck then imagine OTHER factions with larger units? Blame Relic. To compensate, we use the IG's Mars Pattern building to be built on the front so the BaneBlade would normally have enough space to operate.

@Larkin - I am willing to working with you to optimize the other races if needed. I firmly believe ALL FACTIONS have near perfect unitstats so all units come out when they should and in balance. That took ALOT of troubleshooting on my part but it was rewarding.

I do agree with Arkhan - we've done alot of mines and turrets control based on alot of beta testing. How more perfect do we go until the universe collapses into super-perfection?

Also.. Why are hellhounds better now compared to Chimeras? Sentinels are there to eliminate the enemy vehicles and are fast but weak armoured. Hellhounds just go after infantry which is what other IG units do but the IG need a decent anti-vehicle unit there (not spammed of course). In fact, I see more Chimeras then Sentinels in my testing.

Still.. I'm open to working with you and quickly optimizing what needs to be done. We should be all proud of this amazing work as AI demands time and patience which no paid dev would ever do. Bravo guys! Bravo!

[ThetaOrion]

Still.. I'm open to working with you and quickly optimizing what needs to be done. We should be all proud of this amazing work as AI demands time and patience which no paid dev would ever do. Bravo guys! Bravo!

--

Now, that sounds cool. In the end, you would probably end up with AI allies that can hold their own too and are really worth having in there.

I hope you guys do it, or experiment around with it, and do some sort of optimized 2.4, or even tweak a bit on it for 2.3, if there is time. Although, Arkhan is right, people are now getting anxious or weary waiting for 2.3, but sometimes the extra wait can be well worth it.

I'd like to see Thud, and Larkin, and Inquistor put out an optimized AI in many respects, just to see what happens when Larkin gets it the way he wants it. Of course, you might not like some of it, or the users might not like some of it, and you might have to find a balance. But, nothing ventured, nothing gained.

I have always been inpressed with Larkin's input, his ability to cut right to the core of the matter.

And, I have also been very interested Inquisitor's input lately.

And, it was always nice to see Thud looking out for the Eldar, as they seemed to be the race I usually liked playing most, as they can be quite a challenge to micromanage.

--

Larkin says he will do the Chaos.

You all have been looking at IG.

The Eldar always seem to need something more, but maybe that has now changed.

I don't know if Tau are still OP, but they probably don't need much, although Larkin seems to think that they do.

SM always have that inherent deep-striking advantage that gives them so much more T4 punch or ability than most factions have. SM are like the bench-mark race.

And Inquisitor has been trying to wake up the Necrons, and Larkin has taken steps to wake up the Orks.

Bravo all around!

Exciting indeed!

[ThetaOrion]

The only thing I don't want to be removed is the 4 build programs concept allround, ranged, melee and fast tech since this was always important feature for me.

--

Agreed, that was always an improtant feature for me as well.

Separate build programs helped to make the AI more variable and more unpredictable.

After that came along, no game ever quite played out in exactly the same way twice ever again.

They came, but they now came at slightly different times, and you never knew when they were going to come.

At times, I have even requested more of this variability.

In 2.0 and 2.1, the AI always seemed to unite and go after the human first, iirc. That got kind of old. That was a Relic inheritance, I think. After thirty minutes of gameplay, it was always the same game over and over again, after awhile, with them uniting and coming to the human player's base first.

It was nice later in the process to actually see them unite and go after an AI ally, every once in awhile. 2.2 seemed to move that direction, iirc, with a bit more variability in their target selection process. Sometimes, they wouldn't show up at all in my base, and then suddenly my AI ally was dead. It was a bit of a shock.

That kind of shock is a nice kind of shock.

A bit of randomness or variability or unpredictability is really really good for an AI. It makes the AI play more like a human.

[thudo]

@Theta - thanks for the support, d00d!

@Larkin - checked your Necron changes. Please try Build6 and see if its better especially the Tier2-4 Destroyer/H.Destroyer output. We should not need to force build those 2 units for each of the buildprograms but we could. Open to suggestions my friend.

@Testers - Build6 is up: http://forums.revora...showtopic=48594