38 replies to this topic

[LarkinVB]

3. It was not in front, it was across the map in enemy territory. Therefore is suggest a max distance which is half the distance to enemy start position.

7. They did sniper research as first research in T1 but never used it in T1.

Btw vespids seem to fight always at ranged. Not sure why. And cultists should get ranged stance at T3/4 to work as detectors. Now they get build, charge and die at upper tiers.

[Inquisitor]

Oh and Inquisitor - Necrons don't have a chance against a good Tau player because Tau can piss over the enemy using its insanely unfair range attacks and then start spamming its Tier3 crap. See this too many times hence why Tau will likely always been too uber. Necrons are good with the "death march" but if they can't get to their distant enemies then all Undead have to die eventually.

I don't know what game you play, but it's not DC1.2.

But, don't take my word for it, read this thread (and watch the replay if you will). Thread is started by by the number two on the ladder (plays random races, so he knows all the tricks) and the game is vs. number one. There are a lot of interesting points in the comments.
If that's not enough evidence, then you could browse this thread for a bunch of other Tau players view on the MU.

My point is only that using the AI as a measure for how two races match up is pointless if we're making this mod for humans. So for the last time: If AI Tau win over AI Necron it is because the AI Necron could be much better. The evidence is in the links given above.

[thudo]

Based on the incredible Necron feedback, I think the Necron AI is pretty much perfect. There is only so much before you rip your hair out in this business to avoid burnout. And until we get dedicated AI processors, scripting languages will only simulate a fraction of a fraction of a skilled human player so those "tricks" are based on "experienced intelligence" - we can only exploit what the core code allows us to do and what our time allows us hence the reason all AIs for all games out there never truely get the attention they deserve.

[ArkhanTheBlack]

Btw vespids seem to fight always at ranged. Not sure why.

I once tried to get them into melee, but it was hopeless, nothing worked...

And cultists should get ranged stance at T3/4 to work as detectors. Now they get build, charge and die at upper tiers.

Sounds good! Done! I hope it works like expected...

3. It was not in front, it was across the map in enemy territory. Therefore is suggest a max distance which is half the distance to enemy start position.

I consider a fortified position in enemy territory a huge advantage. The enemy will have a hard time to conquer it back. In all my test games the AI was usually very successfull with the front bases.
I'd like to hear an opion from someone who really played against the AI: Inquisitor what's your experience with the AI's front bases?

[thudo]

I consider a fortified position in enemy territory a huge advantage. The enemy will have a hard time to conquer it back. In all my test games the AI was usually very successfull with the front bases.

Normally, if an AI or player can build deep into enemy territory and spawn from there isn't that a sign of strength and "ballziness"? I remember having feedback that the AI should build forward into the front thus increasing its influence. I'm not sure I've seen one problem with this. Remember, if the AI or player can build those extra outposts it means there is enough disposable income - for the AI thats a huge deal and a major turning point.

[LarkinVB]

This is true while there is a safe path between HQ and front base. In this case there wasn't. AI was just lucky to grab an LP there. Afterwards while it's HQ was attacked and anihilated it couldn't help to defend it with units constructed at front base as those never made it back alive.

I consider a fortified position in enemy territory a huge advantage. The enemy will have a hard time to conquer it back. In all my test games the AI was usually very successfull with the front bases.

It was very easy for him. He conquered the unsupported HQ and afterwards the front base.

Edited by LarkinVB, 26 April 2007 - 06:21 AM.

[ThetaOrion]

A few questions on this IG subject:

1. "Does bunkering the IG squads help them at all in Tier 1 or Tier 2 to stand against the Necrons or anyone else for that matter?" It seemed like the last time I looked, some of the IG squads couldn't shoot while they were bunkered inside the Command Center or inside the Barracks. What's the good of bunkering the IG if they can't even shoot while bunkered, that's what I was thinking at the time. I could never figure out which ones could shoot while bunkered and which ones could not

2. "Didn't Relic finally adjust this game's AI so that the AI can now Bunker the IG, along with using the Webway gates for the Eldar?" I assume that if it is working right, bunkering the IG would benefit the IG, both in the hands of a human and in the hands of the AI. You might want to look into it if you have the time.

3. "So, if the AI can bunker IG units, does it do any good? And, can all the different IG AI infantry squads shoot while bunkered?" If only some of the IG infantry squads can shoot while bunkered, then their AI needs to be adjusted so that they all can.

--

It seemed like in the past that I got good mileage out of the IG and others while dancing them around an L2 listening post or around an IG turret. The enemy NW tends to go after the troops, so you have to try to stay out of range but be close enough to tempt them, all while the turret or LP2 is chewing them up. Anyway, I suppose this is something that only a human can do, and not something that the AI can do. But, some of this tends to explain why I like large maps and usually play at the SLOW setting, and explains why I like to drop down a turret in the middle next to an LP2 listening post and then pile up troops there to protect it all. I often create a forward base or a fire base in the middle of the map and let them work on that and essentially lure the AI into not messing with my main base. Of course, none of that really works all that well on a small 1vs1, although an early turret next to the barracks might do a lot more good than one could imagine, especially if you can bunker the IG troops as well?

Furthermore, I like to put out two squads of IG Guardsmen, and then put them on overwatch. Then what you do is have both squads attack the NW just at the edge of their range, and you pull one squad back when it is half gone, and put the other one closer to take the damage, and keeps switching back and forth until the NW are gone, while both squads are on overwatch and constantly repairing themselves. Not sure if the AI can do that or not, but a good commando hit and run and hit and run can sometimes work.

Of course, finding heavy cover and setting an ambush for NW can often help as well, if you have enough guardsmen in the heavy cover crater. Of course, this requires that the map have heavy cover, which some don't, and it usually requires 2 or 3 squads of guardsmen to fill up the crater. I take it that the guardsmen grenades don't knock the NW on their butts like the grenades seem to do with the other races!

--

Of course, that's part of the fun of DoW and DC, trying to figure out what works.

But, you might have to do as Arkhan says and ignore it all for now and just finish it. Then you can get Inquistor and Larkin in there playing with the different builds and stuff for 2.4 until they get themselves something for the IG that they like.

I do know that Thud is onto something. Because when Aralez made the IG so that they could stand up to the Necrons toe to toe in the last UC Mod, then the IG were slightly overpowered for all the other races. The IG ended up being the strongest race on average in the last UC mod, simply because Aralez made them so that they could take on the Necrons and hold their ground.

So, I have no problem believing that there is something missing there with the IG when it comes time to send them against the Necrons.

[ThetaOrion]

Oh, one other thing, FIRE!

In 2.2 AI Mod, I used to take Space Marine Scouts, cloak them, and give each of the scouts a Flamer unit. Then I would park the scouts in the path of the incoming Necron Warriors, and Necrons do NOT like fire at all. Anyway, I could often just freeze them up with fire so that they hardly moved, as it seems to destroy their morale and double the amount of damage that everything does to the Necron Warriors.

Cloaked scouts with Flamers, and an LP2 or a turret just seemed to chew through the Necron Warriors with blazing speed!

So, if 1.2 is anything like 1.1, I would suppose that a couple of squads of Guardsmen hitting and running while a Hellhound is spewing fire on the Necron Warriors might just be enough to wipe them out? I don't know. I just know that the IG were never really as versatile as the others in recent builds. Still, I remember the original Winter Assault IG spam where you sent out guardsmen with grenades early in the game and won the game automatically every time. It kind of ruined WA. I take it that the IG no longer have that advantage any more!

It seems like Relic always takes the newly introduced races and makes them overpowered right from the start, while the other races have to wait for a patch to catch up.

[ArkhanTheBlack]

This is true while there is a safe path between HQ and front base. In this case there wasn't. AI was just lucky to grab an LP there. Afterwards while it's HQ was attacked and anihilated it couldn't help to defend it with units constructed at front base as those never made it back alive.

Sounds like a very rare case, since the AI's usually try to destroy the close enemy posts first and not the HQ directly.

1. "Does bunkering the IG squads help them at all in Tier 1 or Tier 2 to stand against the Necrons or anyone else for that matter?" It seemed like the last time I looked, some of the IG squads couldn't shoot while they were bunkered inside the Command Center or inside the Barracks. What's the good of bunkering the IG if they can't even shoot while bunkered, that's what I was thinking at the time. I could never figure out which ones could shoot while bunkered and which ones could not

Usually they only hide if they've a target in range, except they are fleeing. I check a range of 20 - 25 around the building and most time it works.

2. "Didn't Relic finally adjust this game's AI so that the AI can now Bunker the IG, along with using the Webway gates for the Eldar?" I assume that if it is working right, bunkering the IG would benefit the IG, both in the hands of a human and in the hands of the AI. You might want to look into it if you have the time.

We've already added this functionality, so no SCAR code is required anymore. We won't add the webway support since it's to complicated from an algorithmic point of view.

3. "So, if the AI can bunker IG units, does it do any good? And, can all the different IG AI infantry squads shoot while bunkered?" If only some of the IG infantry squads can shoot while bunkered, then their AI needs to be adjusted so that they all can.

Bunkering support is available for all IG squads except Ogryns.

[Inquisitor]

I'd like to hear an opion from someone who really played against the AI: Inquisitor what's your experience with the AI's front bases?

I think it is one of the cool features. It shortens the time for AI reinforcemets to arrive and destroying it (which humans will most often do) buys the AI some time that will sometimes be what's needed for putting together a defense and perhaps even a counteroffensive. I recall many a game where the AI built turrets that were a real nuisance as well. For instance on Tartarus Center, where it made a forward base at the point right outside my base. Pretty frustrating to get knocked around by missiles in your own base.

@ThetaOrion: Regarding bunkering: It is a pretty decent strategy early in the game vs. Necrons, since the bunkered troops cause significant more damage than they did in 1.1. Bunkers also outrange NW and it takes NW quite a while to take bunkers down, but as soon as Immortals turn up they make short work of them. The more troops bunkered the more damage (and plasma shots as well), but damage is not related to their type or upgrades.
Dancing around a turret or LP is a very good IG strat, because they have strong turrets and NW fall like dry weed to heavy bolters.
Running around NW with flamers is a good strategy as well, since breaking them is good as they tend to die quickly and they cause almost no damage while broken. If you're playing against the AI it's even better, because most of the time the AI retreats them all the way back to their base before marching them back to the front (might take several minutes).

[thudo]

Regarding bunkering: It is a pretty decent strategy early in the game vs. Necrons, since the bunkered troops cause significant more damage than they did in 1.1. Bunkers also outrange NW and it takes NW quite a while to take bunkers down, but as soon as Immortals turn up they make short work of them.

Gawd I wish I could agree but last nite I tried re-tweaking the IG and when Necron AI came in with Warrior spam and the Lord it was 99% bye-bye IG regardless of all the buildings being garrisoned. D00d.. IG suck sooooo bad against Necrons. I then tried the same buildorder against SM and CSM and it was far more fair and balanced.

Problem with Necrons is there insane "march o death".. they just steamroller over the hapless IG Guardsmen. Everything they touch IG-wise turned to swiss cheese is soooooooo f**king frustrating. I spend 2+ hours tried to perfect em again Necrons but not once did they overcome Tier2 Necrons. They can't compete against the Warriors AT ALL! Arghhhhhhhh! Stupid Humans!

And that Hellhound.. gawd.. might as well be a "paper-weight with a match". IG have nothing. I soooooo wish the garrison would be better but its like there little tiny flashlight beams just rebound off Necron armour. But when the Tomb Spyder show up HOLY F**K x 50 ! Damn man could that thing be the best CC unit around? It treats buildings like their made of poo.

Damn.. I want a species transfer as lowly HU-MONS are inferior. I submit my life to the C'Tans

[ThetaOrion]

Interesting Thud!

Maybe the only answer is to dump the 1vs1 maps, go with larger maps, giving you more time to prepare, and of course, go in with AI allies to help take some of the heat and punishment. As usual, the results might be slightly different on 2vs2 Mountain Trails where hopefully you can select an AI ally that will help keep the Necrons off your IG hides, and the large size of the map might help as well. On that map, you would want to make sure that the AI is programmed for the AI to quickly notice that the IG need help and to quickly come to the IG's assistance! That too is a possible solution.

I know, I know, if you are wanting a quick test, 1vs1 is the quickest and easiest way to go. The 1vs1 maps do have their purpose!

But, I also found out long ago, that if there are imbalances or unfairnesses in any of the races, a 1vs1 map is the best way to guarantee that somebody is never going to see Tier 4.

Trade offs.

For me, there's a chance that the 2.3 AI IG might just be 'good enough' since I tend to play on the larger maps anyway. When I play, I like to see lots of Tier 4 action, before the game comes to an end, thus 8 player maps tend to be my most favorite.

BUT, I also found while helping to make and test the UC Mod that 8 player maps are NOT the best maps if you are wanting to do a quick test to observe the results of incremental changes in a single race. Aralez was like you, and he liked using smaller maps most of the time to do his AI vs AI comparisons for quick and easy tests to see if his rebalance efforts for a specific race were actually doing anything. I believe that he did a lot of IGvsNecron, 1vs1, until he got it the way that he wanted to leave it.

[ArkhanTheBlack]

Quick side note... I fixed the weird capturing bug! Instead of describing the exact cause of the bug I just want to say the following:

If bad pathing algorithms would make people big, Relic could kneeling touch the moon...

[Inquisitor]

They can't compete against the Warriors AT ALL!

Nah, it probably requires much more skill and the ability to anticipate the Necron players next move (i.e. hit him where it hurts the most). The Necron needs to keep his force together to be effective (NW needs support from the NL) and can't be everywhere. Some new things that you might consider for a specialized anti-Necron IG:

• Make the IG AI player prefer to fight with his GM in cover of one or more turrets until T3.
• Upgrade the CS with priest(s) and make him attack one squad a short while and then pick a new target until T3. This will disrupt NW squads and when they CC it reduces their effective dps drastically.
• Prefer lots of GL until T3. Again, disrupt the phalanx to buy time so that those lasguns can make small dents in the Necrodermis.
• Get out those HH and keep the force together.
• Upgrade some turrets to missile turrets in case a TS or Destroyer turns up.
• Get out a HWT and upgrade it to autocannon - it will put an end to the NW march if allowed. Beware that HWTs are expensive and they should be placed near the turrets/forward base or at almost maximum range.
• Keep a single GM on harassment duty: They should stay out of combat and seek and destroy undefended obelisks and deny the Necron player more than 1-2 strat points. If they are attacked they should retreat to the nearest defended LP, reinforce and attack another enemy LP e.g. the furthest from the NL.

I know a lot of it is impossible, but maybe you can use some of the ideas and think of something that is possible.

@ThetaOrion: You're right about the map size. Necrons have a distinct advantage on small maps, so trying the MU on larger maps is a great idea!

EDIT:
@ArkhanTheBlack: lol!

Edited by Inquisitor, 26 April 2007 - 08:51 PM.

[ThetaOrion]

To be honest, I didn't like Winter Assault all that much, simply because I never liked the IG.

But, despite that fact, there was a time there where I spent weeks trying to figure out how to win as the IG against Chaos.

I couldn't win against Chaos as the IG for a very long time in Winter Assault.

I eventually discovered a couple of things.

1) I discovered that Kasrkin squads with Plasma upgrade and a Priest attached could actually mow down and destroy those indestructible Winter Assault Possessed Space Marines at an incredible rate. That one discovery brought me back into the game and started getting me wins as the IG against the WA Chaos.

2) This discussion helped me to remember one other thing as well. In Dark Crusade, you must make a Commissar and attach it to your Guardsmen. That seems to double their life against Necron Warriors, or at least it did in 1.1. Yes, you still lose, but there is yet another trick. You can use the Commissar's Execute command, and that temporarily makes the attached squad indestructible, often long enough to take out a squad of Necron Warriors or other nasties.

--

Overall Strategy:

My strategy with the IG was to put out about three squads of Guardsmen while capturing listening posts nearby, and then after I have out all three Tech Engineers and building listening posts and barracks, I start immediately putting out all three Commissars, and I rally them to the different places where the Guardsmen are capturing listening posts and attach them. Then you put the Guardsmen with attached Commissar on overwatch once you have most of your LP at LP2. Then when the Necrons or others come calling, you have three squads of Guardsmen with Commissar attached in the center of your base ready to move to one side or the other. It's nice to have a turret there too. With the Commissar attached, they can practically go toe to toe with a Necron Warrior Squad, and if there are three of them (Guardsmen+Commisar) and only one NW, the NW squad is going to lose. But, I also have them on overwatch and I use the Execute command to make the Guardsmen temporarily indestructible and/or to increase the amount of damage that they do, and they just mow through everything. If you have three of them with Commissar attached mowing at the same time, it can be beautiful to see the Orks just disappear like dust in the wind, one squad of orks at a time. That's another thing I do, I keep all three Commissar squads focussed on a single enemy squad until it is gone, and then rinse and repeat, one enemy squad at a time. It should work really well against the Necrons, because they seem to come one squad at a time or you can move quickly out of range so that you are essentially only dealing with one squad at a time.

And, iirc, with three attached Commissars, I actually made the Necron Lord retreat many times, as he was taking way too much damage whenever I used the Execute command on all three IG squads at the same time. With that execute command against Necron Warriors, I was actually loosing squadies slower than the Necron Warriors were, but I think it took all three squads together to make it so.

Like the Eldar, it does require a lot of micromanagement, though, and often can fail in late game when you don't have the time to micromanage everything. The Kasrkin with plasma and Priest don't retreat automatically on their own, without you there to help them do so, a PSM squad can get in close enough to kill them if you don't have something between the Kasrkin and PSM or if you are not retreating or dancing. For me, it was always nice to put a tank or Orgryns between my Kasrkin and the incoming Possessed Space Marines, but it took a lot of micromanagement and a lot of observation to do so, because if those PSM got their hands on Kasrkin, then you were in trouble, even with a Priest attached.

I found that with IG, it also helps to have one of everything, and have it all there as a consolidated group or block. A sentinel to knock out Chaos Predators quickly. A Hellhound to make the Necron Warriors stop shooting or retreat. A basilisk to pound their base from a distance. And, Kasrkin with plasma and a Priest attached to have range on the enemy and to dish out damage while taking very little yourself.

Anyway, there's lots of stuff you can experiment with, with the IG. For me, attaching Commissars and Priests to squads was the key to winning as the IG, now that I think about it. It made a really big difference. That Execute command seemed to make the Guardsmen Squad stronger and more resilient than a NW squad. Every IG infantry squad should have some Commissar, Priest, or Psycher attached to it. They are essential, those attached commanders. If you don't have the IG Commanders attached, you are going to lose every time. I know, because I was losing every time, because I wasn't making Commissars and attaching them.

But, as usual, I don't know what will work in 2.3 of the AI Mod as I haven't tried it yet, and I quit playing plain vanilla 1.2 after I noticed that the IG AI and other AI's were completely broken and didn't work. Plain vanilla DC 1.2 AI wasn't worth my time.

Edited by ThetaOrion, 26 April 2007 - 09:28 PM.

[troubadour]

I am pleased with these last releases, overall AI behavior improved a lot, thx to Arkhan and thx to the dev team.
One minor thing though, when heroes mod is activated the early walker can be easily defeated with anti vehicule troops.
EG : my vet SM with missile launcher are Defilers killers
So is there an easy way to make AI react/detect leveling of ennemy troops in order to adjust the early walker strat ?

Edited by troubadour, 27 April 2007 - 11:46 AM.

[ArkhanTheBlack]

One minor thing though, when heroes mod is activated the early walker can be easily defeated with anti vehicule troops.
EG : my vet SM with missile launcher are Defilers killers
So is there an easy way to make AI react/detect leveling of ennemy troops in order to adjust the early walker strat ?

The AI is already a lot of work with just the basic game modes. Adjusting the AI to the heroes system would simply go too far.

[thudo]

New build going up tonight. Sorry for my tardiness.. I am in the country for a day.

[thudo]

Update.. Build 7 now up!!!!!!!

http://forums.revora...showtopic=48703