8 replies to this topic

[ArkhanTheBlack]

Changes:

- Deactivated buggy hellion homing device deactivated because it still crashes the game

- Fixed / improved FoF behaviour (Note: They will now keep FoF activated if idle and only deactivate it if fighting or if enemies are close. Attached Farseer is still bugged, no chance here...)

Some stuff of Larkins list:

- Quickstart checks also checks for power now (Because of Necrons)

- Attack scarabs are not in always attack mode anymore

- Air units now use vehicle tactic as default

- Orcs will build banners even if turrets are deactivated in the AI control panel

- Fixed check dancing and transport settings of some units

**This is available to the testers for download NOW!!**

[Inquisitor]

Good job, Arkhan! I just took a quick battle with b2 and it seems to play good.

[Zenoth]

Let's see...

- Deactivated buggy hellion homing device deactivated because it still crashes the game

That's an obvious one, it works properly, no more crashes, everyone is happy expect the Hellion Squads.

- Fixed / improved FoF behaviour (Note: They will now keep FoF activated if idle and only deactivate it if fighting or if enemies are close. Attached Farseer is still bugged, no chance here...)

I will elaborate a little more on that below...

Some stuff of Larkins list:

- Quickstart checks also checks for power now (Because of Necrons)

I'm not sure if results can be visually observed, what should be the consequence of that code change? Will Scarabs be more cautious about what to build during the very beginning to avoid Power shortage?

- Attack scarabs are not in always attack mode anymore

To be honest I never really observed any issues with the Scarabs, so if that fixed something I wasn't aware of than that's one less thing to worry about. But just in case, I'm still asking, what was the Scarabs behavior prior to that change? That way if I see it happen from now on I'll be able to report it.

- Air units now use vehicle tactic as default

They were using a different tactic? I'd like to know what should the tactic change imply exactly, if possible? In 3.1 Beta 1 and in 3.0 Final I never really observed anything wrong about the air units, expect of course the non-A.I-related problems like seeing them getting stuck on elevated structures in certain maps (especially custom maps that were not built for Soulstorm, thus not built with air units traffic in mind).

Again, I'm asking details about what it should imply from now on, so that I can test properly, if at all possible that is.

- Orcs will build banners even if turrets are deactivated in the AI control panel

According to my tests so far, it works. I'll resume on observing that one, but I'm pretty sure it's working permanently.

- Fixed check dancing and transport settings of some units

The dancing part, well I don't know what was changed with precision, but I can say that I noticed that ranged units (by default) now tend to stay in dancing "mode" a little longer than what I saw before. I'm not entirely sure if it was just coincidence or not, I'll continue watching about that.

As for the transport settings, what was changed if I may ask? Is the unit selection to be transported now different? Is it occurring less often to avoid suicide missions? I know that the pathing forces the transports to often pass by an enemy base without recognizing it as being an enemy base, to get to point B, but to be honest that was especially true during the Dark Crusade days, now in Soulstorm not only is it almost gone but actual transportation is quite rare.

Alright, now coming back on the FoF stuff...

I can confirm that the Farseer while being attached makes the FoF buggy, meaning that it will constantly turn On and Off. We'll need to accept it, as Arkhan pointed, it's bugged to the point where it won't be fixed by this modification. As for the rest of the FoF behavior, in this build I can safely confirm that it is vastly improved over Beta 1. But... yes, there's a "but", but don't worry, it's a little one. What I'd like to point at is that FoF is often kept Off when units are fleeing threats (attacking enemy infantry, or vehicle, or even just turrets and fortified LP's/Relics). When for instance a squad of Howling Banshees is being shot at and is in danger (both during loss of morale or just massive loss in health/number of units in the squad) then they flee the danger, but FoF is turned Off.

Now I assume that the fleeing is still part of being in "combat" mode since they're getting hit while fleeing, and because Banshees turn it Off during melee fights, which is during combat mode, then when they flee then FoF is kept Off. At least that's how I understand it. Is that so Arkhan? Thudo? Well, anyhow, the point of this is that while not being a show stopper, while not causing the loss of battles nor causing total defeat it does sometimes (really, it's not often, it's not a urgent matter) cause the loss of troops, which costs lots of Requisition especially in Tier 1. If it would happen more often then perhaps I'd say that you guys should perhaps take a look at the fleeing behavior and its relation with the new FoF coding, but while not being a big deal I'm still pointing at it, especially for other testers, if they can also observe the same thing, then it will help me consider this as a fact rather than pure coincidence.

So, to reiterate, I've noticed that FoF is kept Off during fleeing behaviors mostly with the Howling Banshees, when I believe that it should instead turn On, if at all possible. Maybe that giving a condition in relation to the threat level would do it? For example (and I don't presuming knowing how to code, but I'm just humbly suggesting things here) would it be possible to provoke a turning On of FoF if (condition) the threat level suddenly increases (or just "increases" without being sudden) above 'x' amount? And it would turn On only if the threat level in question is causing the infantry to flee.

And, finally, to conclude this small report I'd like to come back on the Haemonculus, he still doesn't attach, but it wasn't mentioned in this build's change log, so I'm not saying that it "doesn't work", I'm just basically pointing at it as a reminder, if you guys Arkhan/Thudo can consider making it work for the next build I'd be glad to test that. I'm coming back on it because... well because he's a hero unit, and he can be attached, but he doesn't, so that's the first reason, but secondly because, quite simply, his purpose is to stay away and decrease enemy morale to high extents, that's his job, his raw damage is low, and as the Orks say, the Eldar break easy. So if he could attach himself to ranged units then that'd be mission accomplished and one less thing to point at for the next builds.

I'll come back tomorrow with another report, that time for other races, because so far we've (well... I know I myself have been) been focusing on the Dark Eldar, the Eldar, the Orks and the Necrons. I need to see how the others play (I did looked at them, but not enough observation was done and not enough notes and notices to report anything substantial about). By the way, Thudo/Arkhan, if you guys have anything in mind about the other races that would be nice to check for then it would perhaps speed things up (just saying, I don't want to pressure anyone here, but the fans certainly await, and with reason).

Edited by Zenoth, 11 November 2008 - 07:10 AM.

[ArkhanTheBlack]

I'm not sure if results can be visually observed, what should be the consequence of that code change? Will Scarabs be more cautious about what to build during the very beginning to avoid Power shortage?

Usually, all races build an additional barracks at the start in quick start mode. Not sure if there's a difference with Necrons, but I at least wanted to make sure that the quick start check is working correctly, so IF there is a special quick start build order then it's executed. You don't have to check anything here. It's not so important.

But just in case, I'm still asking, what was the Scarabs behavior prior to that change?

They always attacked, even if they were reduced to one scarab. Normally squads retreat if they suffer too heavy losses.

I'd like to know what should the tactic change imply exactly, if possible?

The vehicle tactic uses the repair code. Further, it usually makes health condition checks based on 'health' and not on trooper count. They might retreat for repair now if heavy damaged.

The dancing part, well I don't know what was changed with precision, but I can say that I noticed that ranged units (by default) now tend to stay in dancing "mode" a little longer than what I saw before.

Those dancing checks are very special and only occur if faced with chaos cultists. The transport changes make sure that heavy troops don't try to enter inferior transports. (No, an Obliterator squad doesn't fit into a VW Golf!!! Although it might look funny... :-)


I have a look at the FoF code again. I have an idea how to check out the retreat status mor reliable... Thanks for the detailed feedback Zenoth!

[Pseudonymn]

Greetings!

As this is my first post, let me just offer my thanks for all the hard work that has gone into this mod. It's probably the single best thing that has happened to the DoW franchise and I pimp it to everyone I know every chance I get.

Now, to what I came here to discuss: AI DE Soul Power spam. I searched your forums beforehand in order not to be an ass, but I didn't find anything that seemed relevant. Lots of talk about recent changes to DE units generally, teleportation bugs, etc.

Basically, I was wondering if there's been any discussion on the DE's penchant for targeting units (commanders and IG builders especially) with things like Rend Soul repeatedly even when they have no clear line of sight through the FoW. It's at its worst when your commander gets killed, you rebuild him, and he gets zapped to death before he's even had time to make it back to the frontlines - without ever once having seen an enemy unit in between. As annoying as that can be, it's worse when there are more than one DE race on a larger map and especially bad when you have a Soulstorm or two dropped on an army that you thought was safe and left for a moment to micro base structures or some other, smaller conflict elsewhere. In all, a minor quibble really, but it is the one thing that irritates (me) the most since DoS migrated to SS. It's a gem in all other respects. I was just wondering if this issue was being addressed at all and if there is anything that can be done about it?

Cheers!

Edited by Pseudonymn, 11 November 2008 - 11:32 PM.

[Zenoth]

Greetings!

As this is my first post, let me just offer my thanks for all the hard work that has gone into this mod. It's probably the single best thing that has happened to the DoW franchise and I pimp it to everyone I know every chance I get.

Now, to what I came here to discuss: AI DE Soul Power spam. I searched your forums beforehand in order not to be an ass, but I didn't find anything that seemed relevant. Lots of talk about recent changes to DE units generally, teleportation bugs, etc.

Basically, I was wondering if there's been any discussion on the DE's penchant for targeting units (commanders and IG builders especially) with things like Rend Soul repeatedly even when they have no clear line of sight through the FoW. It's at its worst when your commander gets killed, you rebuild him, and he gets zapped to death before he's even had time to make it back to the frontlines - without ever once having seen an enemy unit in between. As annoying as that can be, it's worse when there are more than one DE race on a larger map and especially bad when you have a Soulstorm or two dropped on an army that you thought was safe and left for a moment to micro base structures or some other, smaller conflict elsewhere. In all, a minor quibble really, but it is the one thing that irritates (me) the most since DoS migrated to SS. It's a gem in all other respects. I was just wondering if this issue was being addressed at all and if there is anything that can be done about it?

Cheers!

Hi Pseudonymn and welcome to the forums!

The A.I ignores the Field of War, and that's pretty much a given in probably all RTS'es to date, it's really just for us humans to consider (both in single-player and multi-player), it only affects us. Indeed, the A.I always knows where you are, but they send scouts (and I'm not just talking about DoW here, but any RTS'es in which scouting is possible) to analyze the composition of your base and what types of units you have (sometimes they do more). I'm quite confident that in the Dawn of Skirmish's case the A.I has the same advantage over the human player.

That explains in the Dark Eldar's case why it's using the Soulstorm and other powers like Rend Soul when they would "normally" have no idea where the target(s) was in the first place. It's especially true indeed with Rend Soul. I do agree however that it seems to be used excessively. That's probably something that can be dealt with, to perhaps make the DE's A.I consider managing the Souls resource better. In late Tiers however they never lack any Souls and they use all powers profusely, and to be honest I don't have a problem with that, because obviously the one advantage for the Dark Eldar over other races is to strike swiftly and retreat if at all possible, and attack from unsuspected angles or just strike when you least expected it to happen, and that's the job of the Souls powers.

It can become a problem in Tier 2, but then again, it still comes down to "why" should the DE's powers be used differently. It's certainly good food for thought that you bring. I myself have played so many skirmishes, and I've seen everything that the DE A.I has to offer, but I can tell you when I play against them myself the one thing I fear is to train a hero in Tier 1 due to Rend Soul, but that's alright, that's the Dark Eldar's goal, to inspire fear and provoke over-vigilance, more so than you would against other races exactly because you will certainly lose your hero unit or your Tech Priest without even getting into combat, which is certainly frustrating. But that's frustrating from the point of view of the ones facing the Dark Eldars. I'm unsure if anything should be done about it, and if we do find something to do then to what extent will the changes be applied, and what impact will it have on the DE overall.

You know, generally speaking most players can still overcome the A.I even with this modification, simply because we are humans and we think differently, and so it is one of the reasons why in most RTS'es out there you get A.I that either cheat with their resources or know everything you're doing, or both. I'm also certain that if Arkhan/Thudo/Larkin knew from the very beginning (during the Winter Assault days and even before) how to force the A.I in somehow being affected by the Field of War without it being hard-coded or just part of general A.I coding in the gaming industry then they would have done something about it already. It really comes to the coding philosophies and knowledge for RTS games. I myself don't know much about coding, but I can assure you that I just can't imagine just how would it be possible to code the A.I to perceive the Field of War at all, unless the FoW acts as terrain and is set on a grid with specific coordinates which the A.I can "scan" over time like a human would, then it won't happen I'm afraid.

But anyway, coming back on the subject at hand, if Arkhan/Thudo can do something about it, they will let you, I, and everyone else coming to this forum know for sure.

Although, I want to stress on the following:

1) When considering that we're talking about A.I here, then is the term "spam" proper? Are the DE really spaming their powers on us poor humans? And if so, then at which intervals should the usage of any of their powers be done? And under which conditions? And against which targets specifically?

2) Do we really want to temper at all with the way the A.I manages and uses the Souls resource at all? Will it affect the DE too much? Would it mean to cripple the one unique feature of the entire DE race in Soulstorm? Is any action "for" or "against" the Souls powers actually justified?

There's a lot of questioning about it at least in my mind, as you can read. And although I am certainly for discussion on the matter I am still conservative and perhaps doubtful about the reasoning and needs behind this subject. Maybe that in the end a poll of some sort should be brought to the Relic forums under the Adeptus Modificatus section about this and ask the fans what they think should be done about it, if anything at all.

As you said Pseudonymn, and I also agree, it's not an urgent matter, but as I said and I will repeat it, I am certainly favorable for good and constructive discussion about all of this, and in the end only Arkhan and/or Thudo will know what to do, and if they actually do want to do anything about it in the first place, because let's no forget that Dawn of Skirmish 3.10 wasn't meant to be a "be it all", mega release with many changes, 3.10 basically is just a compatibility adjustment version so that we can play the mod with the latest patch which by itself has barely changed anything in terms of game balance (which would be the one thing required to send the whole DoS team into extensive testing on a long period of time like it was the case during the Dark Crusade days and its 1.20 patch if I remember correctly).

So, anyway, you get my point by now and I'm just repeating myself over and over

[ArkhanTheBlack]

Basically, I was wondering if there's been any discussion on the DE's penchant for targeting units (commanders and IG builders especially) with things like Rend Soul repeatedly even when they have no clear line of sight through the FoW.

Good point! I remember that people complained about that behaviour before, but to be honest I'd pretty much completely forgotten about it. It shouldn't be a big problem to fix that. Is Rend Soul the only cheater ability or there other DE abilities involved too?


I've also heared that the scripted fortress assaults in the campaign can crash with the AI. Does the AI have HQ or any other buildings in those maps, or are the units just spawned and sent to attack the player? Just curious...

[Pseudonymn]

Arkhan, it's not limited to Rend Soul. Corrosion and Soulstorm are both abilities that the DE are also able to target seemingly without constraint. Corrosion isn't nearly so annoying, given that it does no damage per se, but it does fall under the category of "offensive" DE powers that target points or units on the map that would otherwise be hidden beneath the FoW. Rekindle Rage and Piercing vision affect their own units, so the issue is not manifested in either one of these. Screams of the Damned, likewise, affects all enemies globally anyway and so there's no issue there either.

As for the campaign, I can't really answer that very well. TBH, I gave up on the campaign ages ago. I got sick to death of skirmish against a cheating bot with HG units that it doesn't deserve and/or with 2 elite bases in reserve to boot. And since SS's stock campaign had such a weak story and everything you did was just one skirmish after another, I've spent my offline time playing against your bots instead - a far more rewarding experience than the campaign ever provided. But from what I recall of what little I did play, I know the Eldar stronghold had several HQ buildings, as did the Chaos.

[Edit] It does occur to me that, on the Eldar SH map for instance, there are times when units, even buildings, are spawned in.

Zenoth, you make a sound post, thank you. I'm no expert with computer language (yet) either, but I do know that a map is merely a set of coordinates and that the FoW is nothing more than the difference between those points and the subset of points that are revealed on the map by one's own units - or, in other words, the points that we see once the FoW is lifted "are in" the superset of points contained by the map.

I won't pretend to know what's involved in how the AI makes its decisions over the course of a game but, if determining what those points are is anything like querying a database, writing the code to determine where valid Soul Power targets might be shouldn't be too terribly complicated and wouldn't necessarily involve taking away its ability to see the whole map. That is provided, of course, that DoW supports the sorts of algorithms that I am thinking of [Edit2 - Though I suspect it does, given that it is able to draw dynamically the FoW material in the first place]. Again, I don't know and I'll leave it to the experts to decide whether or not there are any practical solutions to this issue.

Edited by Pseudonymn, 12 November 2008 - 09:07 AM.

[dreddnott]

When I compared the Fleet of Foot code in Beta 1 to Beta 2, I was thrown off a bit by the reorganisation of the code. I see now that it makes much more sense to define the FoF range for each infantry type at the beginning, in the init section. Other than that the only real difference is the organisation of the booleans and the conditional statement that governs the entire apparatus.

If you do a comparison yourself, you'll see that my code-writing ability is very elemental compared to Arkhan's. At least it was functional.

I'd have to do a lot more testing to re-familiarise myself how the code works, but it seems that Arkhan's modifications make it more reliable as far as switching it off when enemies are nearby (the primary reason I wrote that code in the first place!), but less reliable as far as switching it on when retreating. Not sure yet though.