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Help Me, Obi-Wan Kenobi; You're My Only Hope


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#21 Kacen

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Posted 25 August 2009 - 03:12 AM

Kinda hard to picture an aging Obi-Wan flying a V-Wing...or any other fighter.

I find it odd though it seemed the Empire/late Republic used V-Wings mass produced more than the Eta's, with the Eta's being reserved for Jedi, yet the Eta's were more an influence for the T.I.E. fighters.

Both the V-Wing and Eta's share TIE similarities. If I recall don't V-Wings have the same engine noise?

Edited by Kacen, 25 August 2009 - 03:22 AM.


#22 Phoenix Rising

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Posted 26 August 2009 - 11:42 PM

Sorry for the disappearance right after this news post; I was actually on vacation :ohmy:! But I'm back now.

I don't exactly understand what you did with the transports. You mentioned they are double priced and twice the damage and shields etc. from the existing units.

What I can grab from it is that the ship itself is twice the normal cost, and the fighter complements for ships that have them are priced regularly.

Exactly. Heroic ISDs are 15970 x2 + complement cost. Promotions also add a certain amount to the upgrade cost. Successive transport upgrades, however, will subtract out the price of the ship you're replacing, so, for example, there's only a slight cost to upgrade Lando to the Emancipator, because you've already paid for the Remember Alderaan. It's all pretty confusing, but my point in trying to explain it was to show that it's also pretty fair.

But Darth Vader's Executor is just a regular Executor I-class Star Dreadnaught and not like Thrawn's Razor's Kiss, which is a customized Executor I-class Star Dreadnaught. So is Darth Vader's Executor still twice the price, and is Thrawn's transport customized AND twice the health and shields?

"Customized" and "modified" are just descriptive terms. A customized ship is one with superficial changes that set it apart from the base unit: maybe it has a sweet paint job, but commonly this means it has a unique complement. A modified ship is one with stats that differ from baseline. And "modified" trumps "customized", so many modified ships are also customized.

-I'm guessing that when it says Rank on the page it is for all of the ships and for land combat? While if it says Navy Rank etc. it means just for a specific unit correct?

Yes - rank by itself is universal. Army rank is ground, starfighter rank is airspeeder/starfighter, navy rank is starship, and rank is all of the above.

-Do heroes bonuses work on Space Stations as a side thought?

I don't think they do right now, but they're intended to for naval heroes. It's just a quirk in the code.

-Shouldn't Ackbar have a rank for all the ships?

If/when we get a MC90 model for the Defiance, he'll get an upgrade to NR Commander-in-Chief (technically "Supreme Commander", but because of the ambiguity of that rank and the fact that we're using it as the Rebel meaning, I'm going with CiC rank class), which would put him in charge of all military forces for the NR. So, some glaring omissions are for potential future considerations...

-Shouldn't Lando possibly have a star in Offense since of him wanting to attack the ISDs at such a close range and maybe Ackbar should get a Defense since he didn't want to :mad2:

-Thrawn should have some Defense (since his moral of saving his fighters and troops as much as possible),Intelligence since of Delta Source, Motivation since of the time when he motivated General Drost to increase security and scare him back into action after that ISD sabotage.

Maybe. I had to pick-and-choose with some of these though, because everyone gets a limited number of points to spend on bonuses and it's favorable to have more stars in fewer qualities than the opposite. With Ackbar, for example, I figured that since he literally wrote the book on fleet tactics for the NR, he ought to be a really good tactician rather than a mediocre generalist. Also, Delta Source isn't a leadership characteristic (Ackbar's intelligence bonus comes from him being a scout).

-Why did you decide to not have Mon Mothma not have a Motivation of 5 to give the Rebels a Palpatine opposite.

Variety, I guess; I'm not a huge fan of "mirror" balance. I figured Mothma was relatively more inspirational/protective and Palpatine has the added motivator of fear.

-Do the TIE fighters and other non hyperdrive units of the heroes get a modified one that could give them a hyperdrive...

I've given them the vanilla "no" hyperdrive rather than the PR Class 8.0, so they can move with a fleet and not slow it down.

-What will happen with the Millenium Falcon? Can you have 2 now or are Chewbacca and Han still one unit?

Nah, they're still a duo... just have separate entries on the site.

-Also will that Ackbar/Fey'lya debonus happen with other heroes, like Motti and Vader? And will others get bonuses, like Leia and Han...Thrawn and Pellaeon

I'm not sure... I might just get rid of such synergy (asynergy?) bonuses entirely. Originally, I wanted to apply a universal combat debonus when both were in combat, but I don't think that's possible. The best I can do is debonus each of their hero transports, which isn't very meaningful.

-Shouldn't Motti have some Offense, since he wanted to attack with the Death Star right away?

Motti is an advocate of technology; he believes in tangibles. That's why I gave him a hull bonus. Motti didn't have the authority to order the Death Star around anyways.

-Will Cronal be able to heal his Singularity twice as fast as other Star Destroyers due to his ability to control meltmassif...

I haven't actually read SoM yet and I'm trying to do Cronal without spoiling it, heh. If it makes sense, I'll try to work it in somehow.

As for the TIE Defenders, Cronal is tricky: he's a loyalist Imperial as Cronal and Blackhole, but a breakaway warlord (and therefore not Empire affiliation) as Shadowspawn. So his materiel as Shadowspawn would not count, although powers and other constants could. Of course, after the Mindor campaign, he returns to Byss, so that's why he's not on par with someone like Zsinj, who wouldn't be an Imperial hero.

-For all of the heroes with super star destroyers...it seems to me that I have to leave them away from combat for like 50 weeks to get it...could you make it faster for the heroes...since I don't thik anyway builds their SSD on a only 1 lvl 5 space station...maybe up the cost some more for the decrease in build time?

Build eight Level 5 Star Bases on Kuat and it'll take just over 16 weeks... half that with five-star motivation. Hero upgrades now benefit from multiple star bases... perhaps I forgot to mention that.

-Joruus C'baoth should get a Lancer upgrade as a joke of him controling a Lancer to get to Thrawn :D

I wanted to, but couldn't find a name for it. Maybe I'll just have to invent a name... suggestions?

-Can Mara Jade get a Skipray Blastboat since her use of one in the Thrawn Campaign

That's probably better than a Z-95. Maybe I'll swap it out.

-Shouldn't Rom Mohc get an upgrade for the Arc Hammer...and could that allow him to finally build Darktroopers again :crazed:

He should, but I'm not too motivated to rig a dreadnaught model without having official stats for it.

-Also I would still like to see Nek Bwua'tu...

I'm trying to focus on early heroes/units before later ones.

-Also will more of the space units finally have ground ones, like Thrawn and Ruhk...Leia...Rom Mohc and a Dark Trooper Stage III?

Well, this revamp was done with an emphasis on space, sure, but when land is ready for it, army heroes will also get some upgrades.

-Why did you take away some of the ship upgrades, like Fey'lya and the Quenfis, was it because he only used it once and made the crew disloyal to him?

No, that wasn't the reason. For Fey'lya, it was a chronological thing: why "upgrade" to a Nebulon-B from a Dreadnaught? Same for Tarkin... it just didn't make sense when done in order (Executrix -> Vehemence).

We are led to believe that Palpatine was using Battle Meditation over the entire Imperial Fleet, or at least whatever part of it he needed to. This would give him a higher motivation factor than any non-Force user.

Not quite. I'm sure you've noticed the Force rankings - that's another progression entirely removed from military rank. Certainly the Force will be the subject of a future hero revamp... just don't ask me what that will entail yet, because I don't know!

They will probably be on unit. I don't believe iconic duos are being torn apart.

No, but the response to that poll has been strangely muted. Are players that indifferent to it :unsure:?

I agree that it should take time...but the problem comes with that those heroes have to be on that planet because of the engine of the game...which wouldn't be realistic in a real full scale war.

I don't really like that they have to be in space either to upgrade, but it's the only build requirement PG coded that works with heroes (for use with the Arc Hammer).

I think the max rating is five stars, so the best anyone could do would be to match Thrawn, and not outmatch.

In tactics, yes. But that's just on paper - battle is obviously more complicated than that.

But we do have upgrades that go into the Swarm War and beyond. For instance the ISD IV is based off of the LotF era.

Yeah... but it's from a product line that launched at the end of the Clone Wars.

There have to be limits on the "what if" scenario, however. Technology is totally different from the birth of a specific person. You can always pour more money and effort into research and updating old ship designs and such. You can't force a someone to be born earlier.

Makes about as much sense as adding Darth Revan, assuming Bwua'tu didn't have combat experience within our timeline, which is technically until the end of the Vong War. At some point along the way, I'm not sure the GFFA can be considered a continuation in spirit of the PRM/AtRtR/AoFP/NR, so that's why I set that as the endpoint. I haven't read past The Unifying Force though.

Kinda hard to picture an aging Obi-Wan flying a V-Wing...or any other fighter.

Delta-7, actually. It was Alpha-3 before the revamp, which was done prior to adding the Delta-7.

I would agree with you, but I think you're forgetting that you can recruit Obi-Wan in 18 BBY. And for the squadron upgrade, that's just for fun.

I find it odd though it seemed the Empire/late Republic used V-Wings mass produced more than the Eta's, with the Eta's being reserved for Jedi, yet the Eta's were more an influence for the T.I.E. fighters.

That's why I added the T.I.E., which was utterly overlooked in the prequels. It's meant to be in use circa 21.5 BBY, around the time the Delta-7 was introduced. I believe the V-19, which is jokingly large, has become very overstated in its role as the predecessor to the Alpha-3.

Edited by Phoenix Rising, 27 August 2009 - 12:23 AM.


#23 Guest_StarWars_*

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Posted 27 August 2009 - 06:07 AM

I've given them the vanilla "no" hyperdrive rather than the PR Class 8.0, so they can move with a fleet and not slow it down.

Thank you! This only applies to heroes I assume?

Build eight Level 5 Star Bases on Kuat and it'll take just over 16 weeks... half that with five-star motivation. Hero upgrades now benefit from multiple star bases... perhaps I forgot to mention that.

One word... YES :p

-Joruus C'baoth should get a Lancer upgrade as a joke of him controling a Lancer to get to Thrawn :crazed:

I wanted to, but couldn't find a name for it. Maybe I'll just have to invent a name... suggestions?

I just looked it up in the book, and it was an unidentified Lancer (guess he stole it from a pirate force), how about Maniacal...has a nice touch

Makes about as much sense as adding Darth Revan

That would be fun...could we give them the Empire the Star Forge also :cool2: Love to see how the Rebellion try to beat that...though I guess the ships are pretty old designs.


By the way...how are you doing with your job search?

#24 Tropical Bob

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Posted 27 August 2009 - 06:30 AM


-Joruus C'baoth should get a Lancer upgrade as a joke of him controling a Lancer to get to Thrawn :p

I wanted to, but couldn't find a name for it. Maybe I'll just have to invent a name... suggestions?

Wookiepedia doesn't even have any list of known Lancer-class names to "adopt," or at the very least, find a pattern of names for them. And I tried to find a pattern in Imperial naming for any ship, but the lists of known ships I expected and thought I previously saw were missing. The best guess I have is something menacing. Ish.

Here's what I could think of on short notice:
Menace
Torment
Tyranny
Insidious
Militant
Imperil
Despot


We are led to believe that Palpatine was using Battle Meditation over the entire Imperial Fleet, or at least whatever part of it he needed to. This would give him a higher motivation factor than any non-Force user.

Not quite. I'm sure you've noticed the Force rankings - that's another progression entirely removed from military rank. Certainly the Force will be the subject of a future hero revamp... just don't ask me what that will entail yet, because I don't know!

Ah. I assumed a Force user's abilities would be figured into how their stats would turn out.


They will probably be on unit. I don't believe iconic duos are being torn apart.

No, but the response to that poll has been strangely muted. Are players that indifferent to it :crazed:?

For me, I'm on the fence. I think it should be considered on an individual basis. Duos like Han Solo/Chewie and C-3PO/R2-D2 shouldn't be torn apart, because they were almost always partnered. Whatever other duos may not turn out the same if they didn't have such a constant presence. That's why I didn't vote.


There have to be limits on the "what if" scenario, however. Technology is totally different from the birth of a specific person. You can always pour more money and effort into research and updating old ship designs and such. You can't force a someone to be born earlier.

Makes about as much sense as adding Darth Revan, assuming Bwua'tu didn't have combat experience within our timeline, which is technically until the end of the Vong War. At some point along the way, I'm not sure the GFFA can be considered a continuation in spirit of the PRM/AtRtR/AoFP/NR, so that's why I set that as the endpoint.

Even though it's possible, there's no evidence that I know of that Bwua'tu had any experience during the Yuuzhan Vong War. We'll have to wait for the Invasion series to finish out to see if he makes it in as a low rank officer or something.

I haven't read past The Unifying Force though.

You're not missing much, and I don't really recommend it anyway. Swarm War wasn't too bad, but it didn't leave me nearly as satisfied as the New Jedi Order series. And Legacy of the Force was just terrible.

#25 skie9173

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Posted 27 August 2009 - 03:06 PM

Not quite. I'm sure you've noticed the Force rankings - that's another progression entirely removed from military rank. Certainly the Force will be the subject of a future hero revamp... just don't ask me what that will entail yet, because I don't know!


so is that why Joruus C'baoth doesn't have any command stars then, despite using battle meditation during thawn campaign? not to mention the few other characters with similar skills and powers
as for a named Lancer for him:
Arrogance
Vindictive
Persecutor
Oppressor
are my ideas. i like Tropical Bob's Despot too. feels rather approriate for the character
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#26 Phoenix Rising

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Posted 27 August 2009 - 04:39 PM

I've given them the vanilla "no" hyperdrive rather than the PR Class 8.0, so they can move with a fleet and not slow it down.

Thank you! This only applies to heroes I assume?

Yeah.

By the way...how are you doing with your job search?

I'm doing temp/contract work at the moment. Hopefully things will improve where I can work full-time. My advice: stay in college as long as you can.


-Joruus C'baoth should get a Lancer upgrade as a joke of him controling a Lancer to get to Thrawn :p

I wanted to, but couldn't find a name for it. Maybe I'll just have to invent a name... suggestions?

Thanks for all the suggestions. All would make great names for a Lancer, but I feel something is still missing. I think there has to be a certain bit of irony or double entendre in the naming of a one-off ship. It also has to still make sense for an Imperial ship of the given class and, ideally, be a unique name. Therefore (now that I'm in the right mindset), I'm leaning towards the Hindrance, given that a Lancer is really no more than an hindrance on the battlefield and that C'baoth frequently hindered Thrawn's operations. How does that sound?

Ah. I assumed a Force user's abilities would be figured into how their stats would turn out.

so is that why Joruus C'baoth doesn't have any command stars then, despite using battle meditation during thawn campaign? not to mention the few other characters with similar skills and powers

Force abilities ought to stack with and be separate from leadership/command abilities, but that's as far as I've gotten. Palpatine's motivation is entirely from his position as Galactic Emperor.

For me, I'm on the fence. ... That's why I didn't vote.

Fair enough. Maybe it was a weird question; I don't know.

I haven't read past The Unifying Force though.

You're not missing much, and I don't really recommend it anyway. Swarm War wasn't too bad, but it didn't leave me nearly as satisfied as the New Jedi Order series. And Legacy of the Force was just terrible.

That's what I've gathered. I'm sure I could knock Dark Nest out quickly, but I'm trying to go back and focus on some of the one-shot novels that I missed within our timeline: Allegiance, Tatooine Ghost, Survivor's Quest, Shadows of Mindor (if I can stand waiting for the paperback). I'm also considering rereading the Thrawn Trilogy and I recently picked up the Dark Empire omnibuses to fill in my spotty DE comic collection that I've had since I was 10 or so (modding can get expensive, but I'm not complaining).

Edited by Phoenix Rising, 27 August 2009 - 04:40 PM.


#27 Guest_StarWars_*

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Posted 27 August 2009 - 05:08 PM

Thanks for all the suggestions. All would make great names for a Lancer, but I feel something is still missing. I think there has to be a certain bit of irony or double entendre in the naming of a one-off ship. It also has to still make sense for an Imperial ship of the given class and, ideally, be a unique name. Therefore (now that I'm in the right mindset), I'm leaning towards the Hindrance, given that a Lancer is really no more than an hindrance on the battlefield and that C'baoth frequently hindered Thrawn's operations. How does that sound?

I 2nd it.

That's what I've gathered. I'm sure I could knock Dark Nest out quickly, but I'm trying to go back and focus on some of the one-shot novels that I missed within our timeline: Allegiance, Tatooine Ghost, Survivor's Quest, Shadows of Mindor (if I can stand waiting for the paperback). I'm also considering rereading the Thrawn Trilogy and I recently picked up the Dark Empire omnibuses to fill in my spotty DE comic collection that I've had since I was 10 or so (modding can get expensive, but I'm not complaining).

If you need to know some of the main things that happen...I could write a summary of each chapter?

By the way did you see the bug list I made when you were on vacation?

P.S. Will the new release have the updated Galaxy?

#28 Phoenix Rising

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Posted 27 August 2009 - 07:01 PM

If you need to know some of the main things that happen...I could write a summary of each chapter?

For...? Nah, don't bother, I don't want them spoiled. I don't think any of those books are terribly significant to the mod (at this point) and I've read just about everything else on the timeline.

By the way did you see the bug list I made when you were on vacation?

Yes - I'll get to it soon! I just have a lot to respond to. You also kind of have to have the mod open to work on bug reports, so responses there are usually slower.

P.S. Will the new release have the updated Galaxy?

As in, The Essential Atlas one? Not yet. Ghost will have to redo many of the chokepoints and such, so we're going to wait until v1.3 instead of making two iterations for v1.2.

Edited by Phoenix Rising, 27 August 2009 - 07:02 PM.


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Posted 31 August 2009 - 02:36 AM

Would it be possible that when you upgrade a hero, their previous ship, if it is a frigate or above, will spawn as a normal vessel of its class, that would make more sense than a Star Destroyer just disappearing because of an upgrade

#30 Tropical Bob

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Posted 31 August 2009 - 04:05 AM

It's certainly possible. And it's actually a pretty good idea...

#31 Guest_StarWars_*

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Posted 31 August 2009 - 04:27 PM

It's certainly possible. And it's actually a pretty good idea...

I like that idea also.

By the way Phoenix, like the new heroes you just posted on the site, does this mean we will see all of the main captains in the Thrawn Campaign? Also as a side note, will some of the heroes in the later campaign start with their upgraded unit, for example Pellaeon would starts with the Chimaera in the Thrawn Campaign?

#32 Kitkun

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Posted 31 August 2009 - 07:57 PM

I do have a question about the rank and, for want of a better term, bonus levels. Simply put, what are they?
In particular, it looks kind of odd to me that a Captain is just barely better than a Lieutenant. Especially as all the elite fighter pilots get small bonuses.
What about special cases such as Wedge refusing promotion?

Also, some look as if they have unused points. Kenobi is listed as a Surface Marshal (7) but has just five points in Diplomacy.

I hope you find good models for missing things soon. Ackbar and Solo could really use those upgrades to help counteract the massive proliferation of Imperial Dreadnoughts.

Edited by Kitkun, 31 August 2009 - 07:59 PM.

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#33 Phoenix Rising

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Posted 01 September 2009 - 01:57 AM

Would it be possible that when you upgrade a hero, their previous ship, if it is a frigate or above, will spawn as a normal vessel of its class, that would make more sense than a Star Destroyer just disappearing because of an upgrade

Yeah, I've been thinking of doing that. It would make upgrades cost more, but you wouldn't have all the wasted space queue time. If everyone likes it, I'll try to work it into this release.

By the way Phoenix, like the new heroes you just posted on the site, does this mean we will see all of the main captains in the Thrawn Campaign?

/Cough... need to write a post about that yet, just got sidetracked this weekend. Stay tuned.

I do have a question about the rank and, for want of a better term, bonus levels. Simply put, what are they?
In particular, it looks kind of odd to me that a Captain is just barely better than a Lieutenant. Especially as all the elite fighter pilots get small bonuses.
What about special cases such as Wedge refusing promotion?

The number of points you get is determined by how high you are in the hierarchy, as quantified by the numerical value of a given Imperial rank badge and code cylinders. I went with this because it made enough sense and was explicit, but I'm not sure that I'm 100% happy with it now that I can see it in practice.

For example, a pilot officer is typically a starfighter officer who hasn't graduated from an academy, like a Luke or a Wedge when they first started out. They hold a rank (and thus get a point) because they're commissioned, but really someone that green shouldn't get a leadership bonus. Flying officer and flight lieutenant are valued equally because their insignias differ only by a cylinder, but there's definitely an experience gap there (compare Wes or Tycho with anyone else in Rogue Squadron circa 4 ABY or so).

I'll probably change how that works in the future by trying to determine the average experience level at each rank and basing it on that, but it's probably better to wait until this comes out so I can do it with certainty, opposed to redoing it all again for this version. At any rate, the necessary changes shouldn't be too major, just time consuming.

As for special cases, I know I discussed a "competence modifier", so to speak, in the past for the point allotments, but did not use one for this iteration. Instead, good leaders tend to be specialists, while worse ones tend to be generalists. I'm not necessarily opposed to modifying points on a case-by-case basis in the future though, should the need arrise.

Also, some look as if they have unused points. Kenobi is listed as a Surface Marshal (7) but has just five points in Diplomacy.

It costs more to attain higher bonuses, so you actually have to spend seven points to become a five-star in anything. Kenobi was a council-seated Jedi General (surface marshal equivalent), but given his moniker as "The Negotiator", I pretty much had to make him a diplomacy leader.

I hope you find good models for missing things soon. Ackbar and Solo could really use those upgrades to help counteract the massive proliferation of Imperial Dreadnoughts.

Don't forget, you can always assassinate a hero - even one with a dreadnaught - although it may not always be the cost-effective option.

#34 Guest_StarWars_*

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Posted 01 September 2009 - 02:17 AM

I'll probably change how that works in the future by trying to determine the average experience level at each rank and basing it on that, but it's probably better to wait until this comes out so I can do it with certainty, opposed to redoing it all again for this version.

I'm just glad Karen Traviss isn't doing that guide anymore...not to mention how happy I am that she's not writing any more books.

Also I want to make sure I understand this after rereading your original post....for instance if Thrawn with the Razors Kiss and Titus Klev were in a battle together...would the more experienced bonus apply or would you only get the Thrawn bonuses (or the Klev bonuses) This is assuming the units are navy type so that Klev's bonus works.

Would you have....
Thrawns 5 Star Tactics
Klev's 2.5 Star Offense (since it overrides Thrawn's 1.5)
Thrawn's 1.5 Morale
Klev's 2 Motivation
Kelv's 1 Intel

Is that correct?

#35 Phoenix Rising

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Posted 01 September 2009 - 02:47 AM

I'm just glad Karen Traviss isn't doing that guide anymore...not to mention how happy I am that she's not writing any more books.

I haven't read any of her books, but that's what I hear. How do you go from a college workshop to writing SW novels in four years? They normally won't even talk to you unless you're a veteran sci-fi author. Anyways, I hope they tap Saxton to do it in her place.

Is that correct?

Yes, although motivation and intel wouldn't be useful traits during the battle.

Edited by Phoenix Rising, 01 September 2009 - 02:47 AM.


#36 Tropical Bob

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Posted 01 September 2009 - 03:14 AM

Perhaps a way to adjust for differing levels of experience would be to add a modifier (Or extra points or whatever) based on the number of years per rank. Or if the exact time per rank isn't known, the approximate duration. (i.e. Between the last mention of Rank #1, and the first mention of Rank #2). Higher ranks would get a higher modifier/point addition, since it's probably harder to keep an Admiral rank than a Lieutenant rank.



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