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#21 M.E.C.H.

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Posted 26 September 2005 - 08:03 PM

T-72 can easily destroy M1 Abrams. As for M1A1 Abrams, it is better than T-72, but worse than T-80. As for M1A2 Abrams, it is better than T-80, but slightly worse than T-90.
If you put T72 and M1A2 facing each other and shooting each other then everything will depend on experience of tankeers. Task of M1A2 crew is only to hit T-72. After 1-2 hits it will be definetly destroyed. Task of T-72 crew is more difficult. They should hit weakened areas of Abrams. 1-2 hits into will be enough too. Also there are some tricks. T-72 can fire HE shell and all Abrams crew will be contused and will not able to do anything during some minutes. This time will be enough to aim properly and destroy Abrams.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Soviet tanks were always my favorite ones (along with german ones of course !!!) Creator do you know if russian's have a double (twin) barrelled tank... not ati air !

Edited by M.E.C.H., 26 September 2005 - 08:04 PM.

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#22 Pendaelose

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Posted 26 September 2005 - 08:11 PM

Once General's dream can become General's horror. History have a lot of examples. Here are two of them

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


Those are good points. I think alot of it would change if america was in the position of having to fight on our own soil. For most americans there is always the feeling of fighting someone else's war. Its hard to believe in a war if its faught 20,000 Km from home. In some ways it might be good for the mind set of many americans if we were faced with that kind of reality, but I'll gladly take it as a blessing we have not and carry on.

If you put T72 and M1A2 facing each other and shooting each other then everything will depend on experience of tankeers. Task of M1A2 crew is only to hit T-72. After 1-2 hits it will be definetly destroyed. Task of T-72 crew is more difficult. They should hit weakened areas of Abrams. 1-2 hits into will be enough too. Also there are some tricks. T-72 can fire HE shell and all Abrams crew will be contused and will not able to do anything during some minutes. This time will be enough to aim properly and destroy Abrams.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


I can't speak for the armor alone, or the vertues of russian tanks (never been in one :) , but I do know one of the most amazing diferences between an M1-A1 and an M1-A2 is the sensors package, targeting systems, stabalizers, and Depleted Uranium armor and shells. Even while moving the turret is kept very stable, and a GOOD loader can out pace an auto loader, but only for a short while (a couple minutes at most) one very nice feature is the Tank commander can designate several targets in a 360 camera and as eash target is destroyed the turret can automaticly swing to target the next. The sensors package has NV, thermal and other toys.

the HE trick works both ways :)
Also, there is quite the variety of armor piercing shells. the standard are bad enough, but the Depleted Uranium shells are pretty terrifying. (so is the DU armor)
I've also seen shells that barley break the armor of the enemy tank and shoot it full of boiling steel. The heat and fumes are very leathal to crew.

I know Iraq had up to T-72 and T-80 tanks. (1st and second war) I also no the USA lost NO tanks in tank vs tank combat. in the first gulf war there was one significant tank battle, the majoraty of the battle was resolved in USA favor before the older tanks could return fire.
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#23 stack111

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Posted 27 September 2005 - 12:43 AM

2) In 1945 after Germany had been defeated, eastern regions of USSR were in danger. Japan forces were in Mongolia and northen China. We had to defeat them. The war with Japan was short, but there was one interesting event. Once one of the fighter squadrons had got the task to destroy Japan military column. When fighters were above the column, pilots had seen that there a lot of civilians around. Japan tanks and soldiers were in the middle of this column. Planes returned to base without attacking their target and pilots said: "We will not kill unarmed people". In some time commanders had found the way out. They had ordered pilots to drop bombs near the column for civilians to run away and only then to destroy tanks and cannons. In result a lot of people lives were saved. American pilots can not do the same. They will destroy anything does not matter the target.

American Pilots can't do this because, if they return to there base they will be court mashalled for disobeying a direct order, and if they do kill the civilians the U.S. Media will have a feeding frenzy on how they killed civilians

so what are your choices:
disobey orders and get sent to jail, ( FYI no one cares if you didn't kill civilians )

or obey orders and end up killing the soldiers and civilians and have the media turn your own civilians against you, because you killed 50 civilains and 300 soldiers

this is a double edged sword
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#24 Creator

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Posted 27 September 2005 - 08:31 AM

Soviet tanks were always my favorite ones (along with german ones of course !!!) Creator do you know if russian's have a double (twin) barrelled tank... not ati air !

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Before WW2 it was project of KV-7:
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http://www.battlefield.ru/

Also, there is quite the variety of armor piercing shells.  the standard are bad enough, but the Depleted Uranium shells are pretty terrifying. (so is the DU armor)
I've also seen shells that barley break the armor of the enemy tank and shoot it full of boiling steel. The heat and fumes are very leathal to crew.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

DU shells were invented by germans during WW2. Nowdays a number of countries have this technology. They are USA, Russia, China, and some others. Also a lot of other countries buy DU shells.

As for DU armor, M1A2 Abrams have armor equal to 850 mm versus KE munitions. T-90 have 830 mm versus KE munitions. Armor is aproximately the same, but T-90 is 25% lighter (46 metric tonns; Abrams have 62 metric tonns). I don't think that DU armor is something super-duper. It have worse defense/weight ratio than T-90 armor.

this is a double edged sword

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Reasonable solvations always exist. One of them had been demonstrated by soviet commanders in that war.

Edited by Creator, 27 September 2005 - 08:38 AM.


#25 M.E.C.H.

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Posted 27 September 2005 - 11:16 AM

[quote name='stack111' date='Sep 27 2005, 12:43 AM']this is a double edged sword

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

[/quote]
Reasonable solvations always exist. One of them had been demonstrated by soviet commanders in that war.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

[/quote]
You may get in jail but you will go to heaven ! :p ! So you did a good job ! If you do somethink to an other person then a day will come and he will repeat this to you ! Or if not the punishment will come from up ! :p
Whatever i dont like this conversation ! So pls close it !
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#26 Casojin

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Posted 27 September 2005 - 03:19 PM

I've also heard (again) that SU27 and SU30 have better maneuverability than F15 and F16. Is this true?

And I've seen a specification that Russian's Fighters are much heavier than American's.

Example...
SU30 max. take-off weight is about 34+9 tons (34 for the plane and 9 for fuel) while max. take-off weight for F15 is about 30 tons.

The source is "www.globalsecurity.org"
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#27 Guest_InComPlete_*

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Posted 27 September 2005 - 05:58 PM

Is somebody knows what is the differences between J-11 and SU-27? SU-35 and SU-37?

Does SU-35/37 is a rival agianst F-22?

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Posted 27 September 2005 - 06:06 PM

I hear there's is a deal between India and Russia that they will jointly develop and fund the 5th generations fighters (For example, Berkut,Raptors).

Any way, what is the real code for MFI migs projects? MIG31, 1.42 or 1.44?

#29 Creator

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Posted 27 September 2005 - 08:14 PM

I've also heard (again) that SU27 and SU30 have better maneuverability than F15 and F16. Is this true?
And I've seen a specification that Russian's Fighters are much heavier than American's.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Yes. True. Russian planes have better glider and engines. This is why they keep better maneurability with higher weight.

Is somebody knows what is the differences between J-11 and SU-27? SU-35 and SU-37?
Does SU-35/37 is a rival agianst F-22?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

J-11 and SU-27 is the same. Generally, J-11 is Chinese name for SU-27.

There is no any Su-35 and Su-37. There is Su-47 "Berkut". Sukhoy Desigh Bureau have its own index for this plane - S-37 (yes, S-37, not Su).

Su-47 can not be rival to F-22 because it is only technology demonstrator. Sukhoy Desigh Bureau had shown that it have very advanced technologies and had got money for 5th generation fighter developing. I don't know how it will look like, but it will be definitely based on Su-47.

I hear there's is a deal between India and Russia that they will jointly develop and fund the 5th generations fighters.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I have heard nothing about it and can not say anything.

Any way, what is the real code for MFI migs projects? MIG31, 1.42 or 1.44?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

MFI is MiG-1.42. Later it had been renamed to MiG-1.44. More later - to MiG-35.

#30 M.E.C.H.

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Posted 27 September 2005 - 08:20 PM

MFI is MiG-1.42. Later it had been renamed to MiG-1.44. More later - to MiG-35.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Creator which is your favourite plane ? Mine is Berkut ! :p
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#31 stack111

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Posted 28 September 2005 - 12:12 AM

i love the Berkut and the F-22, i wish they could fight side by side :p but thats what ace combat 5 is for :blush:
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Posted 28 September 2005 - 09:16 AM

There is no any Su-35 and Su-37.

Thanx to answer my question, :blush: so they are not really exists. I thought they are really exist because I like to use them in Ace Combat. So,Namco the game makers just do cornjob on this, Creator? Thank about the real number for Berkut, Ace Combat make me confused on this.

i love the Berkut and the F-22,

Mine favorite aircraft is same as you but i like SU-27 and EF-2000.

i wish they could fight side by side

Either am i :p

Creator, can you tell me about the real number for the advanced Flanker?

Su-47 can not be rival to F-22 because it is only technology demonstrator.

Oh, I thought S-32 was a technology demonstrator. Anyway, can Eurofighter and Rafael beat an American Raptors?

#33 Casojin

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Posted 28 September 2005 - 09:21 AM

I wish my country got the gut to buy Fighters from Russia not US (as metioned before that Russian Fighters have better maneuverability).
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Posted 28 September 2005 - 09:57 AM

I wish my country got the gut to buy Fighters from Russia not US

Yeah, I wish my country got the gut to buy any MODERN generations fighters from any countries. But I am afriad my government won't going corruption over this project.

That's Right ... THE GOVERNMENT IN MY COUNTRY SUCKS!!! :p :blush: :huh:

Anyway, Does MIG-31 (the one in the movie,not Foxhound) really exists (projects included)?

#35 Creator

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Posted 28 September 2005 - 11:32 AM

Somebody asked earlier if China have Ka-28. Yes. It have these helicopters. Here is the link with detailed information.:
http://www.sinodefen...copter/ka28.asp

Creator, can you tell me about the real number for the advanced Flanker?

I don't know what is Flanker

Anyway, can Eurofighter and Rafael beat an American Raptors?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Yes. Even MiG-19 can do it. The only thing you need is to put experience pilot into MiG an put dumb pilot into Raptor. Technically F-22 Raptor is the most advanced world fighter, but in real war everything depend on pilots. Also Raptor is the most expensive fighter. In the case of war USA will not able to produce hundreds of them very quickly.

Anyway, Does MIG-31 (the one in the movie,not Foxhound) really exists (projects included)?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Yes. There are:
MiG-31 (1977)
MiG-31M (1985)
MiG-31B (1990)
MiG-31E (1992) "E" means that it is export variant
MiG-31F (1998)
MiG-31BM (1999)

Edited by Creator, 28 September 2005 - 11:41 AM.


#36 M.E.C.H.

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Posted 28 September 2005 - 04:55 PM

It really depends on the pilot !!! As for the MIG-31 Its a very old plane ! Why you are reffering to that ? Russia has many more advanced planes, than this ! Also Creator, russia made only those two barelled tanks ? Im trying to find out why, in the video games always russia has heavy twin barelled tanks ! Do you know ?
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#37 Pendaelose

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Posted 28 September 2005 - 05:55 PM

It really depends on the pilot !!! As for the MIG-31 Its a very old plane ! Why you are reffering to that ? Russia has many more advanced planes, than this ! Also Creator, russia made only those two barelled tanks ? Im trying to find out why, in the video games always russia has heavy twin barelled tanks ! Do you know ?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


thats easy... cause westwood was looking for an easy way to make a heavy tank. they didn't care at all about historic acuracy. once a presedent has been set its easy to follow. If C&C says Russia has 2 barrled tanks any game can follow right along.
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#38 Guest_Guest_*

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Posted 28 September 2005 - 07:12 PM

I don't know what is Flanker


Sorry to confuse you I actually mean SU-27.

Yes. Even MiG-19 can do it. The only thing you need is to put experience pilot into MiG an put dumb pilot into Raptor. Technically F-22 Raptor is the most advanced world fighter, but in real war everything depend on pilots. Also Raptor is the most expensive fighter. In the case of war USA will not able to produce hundreds of them very quickly.


No,no,no ;) :p :p ...I mean if they were compare to their technical specification, not a pilot skill or during the time of war or any kind of stuff like that.

Yes. There are:
MiG-31 (1977)
MiG-31M (1985)
MiG-31B (1990)
MiG-31E (1992) "E" means that it is export variant
MiG-31F (1998)
MiG-31BM (1999)

Thank for useful info. I actually mean MIG-31 from a movie "Firefox". Anyway, which plane do you think will they win? A F-22 vs. MIG-31 Firefox (Not foxhound). I bet on F-22s. Yeah Raptors Rocks, baby  :lol: Creator, can you show me some pics for your MIGs please ;)

So, I give you a useful resources on that fake (or maybe real) aircraft

http://thinkinrussian.org/

Here, some pics from that website so you don't get confused between the one that is in the game and the one in the movie.

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thats easy... cause westwood was looking for an easy way to make a heavy tank.


Yeah, Westwood/EA or you can even make 3,4,5,,6,7,8,9,10 or even 100(Woh...too much :p that's gonna look like a battleship!!!) barrels of heavy cannons if they which to put them in. (Man,if a tank has 10 barrels of heavy cannons, I think the tank would be blow up easily or might as huge as a battle ship...That game would become completely overload...boom!!! :lol: )

#39 Creator

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Posted 28 September 2005 - 08:14 PM

As for the MIG-31 Its a very old plane ! Why you are reffering to that ?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Because nowdays Russia have nothing better. All other planes are experimental or for sale only. After collapse of USSR a lot of money had been stolen and until 2010 Russia will not able to buy something new for its army. USSR had LFI and MFI projects. Now LFI had been sold to Iran and renamed to Shafaq. MFI is frozen because of no money and MiG design bureau tries to sell it to China (but unsuccessfull). It was Ajax project of hypersonic plane. It could fly with 14 mach speed (it is 7 times faster than any known plane and anti aircraft missile). Ajax bomber could be simply invulnerable. Now americans continue to develop this project (they call it HyTech; yes, with Y letter). It was EKIP project of super economic plane that look like flying plate ( http://www.ekip-avia...com/index-r.htm ). It was project of space fighter that could destroy enemy satellites and ballistic missiles. But in 1991 stupid democrats ruined everything. One jackass (Mikhail Gorbachev) decided to rebuild USSR. Another one clinical idiot, democrat and alcoholic, Boris Yeltsin, had turned this rebuilding into real chaos. This is why for the 99% of russians such word as democracy means shit.

Also Creator, russia made only those two barelled tanks ?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Yes. When Stalin saw these monsters he said: "Why do one need such a lot of barrels? It is better to have one and good cannon". In that time Stalin was nearly god for soviet people and his words were not only an order, they were like precept for all future generations. Later it was no even attempt to build tank with more than one barrel. Also one need to note that all russian tanks were always lighter and smaller than european and american ones. Westwood in its C&C series games made everything vice versa.

No,no,no ;)  :p  :p ...I mean if they were compare to their technical specification, not a pilot skill or during the time of war or any kind of stuff like that.

Raptor have better technical characteristics.

Thank for useful info. I actually mean MIG-31 from a movie "Firefox".

So, I give you a useful resources on that fake (or maybe real) aircraft

http://thinkinrussian.org/

Here, some pics from that website so you don't get confused between the one that is in the game and the one in the movie.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

There is no such plane, but in the past it were projects of Tu-SB bomber and M-53 transport planes. Here is variant of M-53:
http://www.testpilot...3/img/m53_3.jpg
Both projects had not been completed. No such planes (even experimental) were built.

Creator, can you show me some pics for your MIGs please ;)

http://www.airwar.ru/photo/mig31.html

Edited by Creator, 28 September 2005 - 08:15 PM.


#40 M.E.C.H.

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Posted 28 September 2005 - 09:04 PM

Thanks Creator ! Preety good infos... Can you post me alink so i can see the Russias experimental tanks ? Thanks ! By the way what happened with the new tanks on the gla ?
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