Putin ups the game.

New era of discord for Russia and West
Nato condemns Putin missile vow

basically, Putin is nationalizing Russia, causing new friction between Russia and the West. as the articles from BBC says, this is a counter to the neo-conservative politics of president Bush, and it really makes me sad so see that Bush has made the world a much more unsafe place with his politics.

if we are lucky, Putin will step down around the same time as Bush does, and most likely the US politics will get back into something more acceptable style. but Putin practically decides who will be the next president if he doesnt manage to change the rules so that he can be president for another 40 years. would this have happened if it wasnt for bush? it might have, but it certainly have given Putin the chance to do as he is doing right now.

But the US even offered to share the technology. I don't understand why they don't acept it and also build one?

I didn't know you could nationalise an entire country...

Russia's just playing the Old Russian Bear, fearsome on the outside by weary and in need of hibernation inside.

I was wondering when this topic would come up here.
I can't see any logic in Putin.
Why would he be so pissed off?
Is it because he would like to have a balance of power as in all have nuke-capabilities...?
US/EU has nukes, but if it can't be hit by nukes its obvious that the power swings... could this be why Putin is becoming so enraged?

Only Britain and France have nukes, therefore you must bow down to us.

Ali, do you have anything useful to contribute to this forum at all?


But in other news, what the hell? I mean, seriously. Why's he pointing missiles at Europe in the first place? Point them at the bloody US. I mean, I understand the need to preserve one's power and ego but at the same time, I fail to see what purpose that serves other than to turn everyone against you. There is no legitimate justification for aiming missiles at Europe.

There is no logic in what Putin is doing. The US wants to put 10 interceptors in Europe. Russia has a lot more than 10 missiles. How they can feel threaten by something that could not even stop a tiny fraction of their nuclear power is beyond me.

Current US tech couldn't shoot down Russia's old one, the new ones don't help.

You can't build a missile shield against Russia. I don't understand why they're afraid.

You might be able to shoot down one missle, but not advanced missles/MIRVS.

Bush claims that the defences are to protect against missile attacks from Iran and North Korea, even though neither of them have the tech or capability to do it and Putin's pissed cause he thinks that the defences are really to protect against missile attacks from Russia, which poses no threat.

I feel a possible Cold War 2 coming or something big between the US and Russia at least, but that's just me .

Edited by Soul, 05 June 2007 - 06:35 PM.

Bush urged Russian cooperation with U.S. efforts to build a weapons system that would help "safeguard free nations against a missile attack launched from a rogue regime," inviting Putin to send military personnel and scientists to learn about the system.

"My message will be, Vladimir -- I call him Vladimir -- that you shouldn't fear a missile defense system," Bush said.

"As a matter of fact, why don't you cooperate with us ... Please send your generals over to see how such a system would work. Send your scientists. Let us have the ability to discuss this issue in an open forum."

"We'll be completely transparent," he added.

While the U.S. relationship with Russia is complex, Bush said the countries could work together to deal with mutual threats.

Quoted from a Bush speech from PRAGUE, Czech Republic.

If we're willing to share the tech, than what's the issue? What are the Russians pissed off about if we are trying to include them in a worldwide net of missile detection and inteception? Simply because they didn't think of it first?

It's like when china and russia abstain/veto everytime from anything voted on in the permanant UN security council. Just to let the world know whatever it is, they don't agree with the US. Vote if the "sky is blue" they'll abstain or veto.

And it makes me laugh when I read "Russia will now target thier missiles at european targets." Where the hell else would they be targeted at besides the US?

They might be targeted at no one presently, "on the line", but I'm sure a button click away to reload those "old targeting sequences."

Stupid political rhetoric....

beh, Putin is acting tough because he misses the good old days, when Russia actually mattered in world politics.
His coffers are full of fuel and gas money at the moment so he feels he can get away with his little chest banging. What he should be worried about is not a US missile shield (with unproven technology, and too small to stop Russia remaining arsenal) but his economy's dependance on selling it's energy reserves, Russia's rising violence and nationalism and it's low life expectancy (lowest in the "developped" world).

He would do well to think a little bit ahead, say towards 20 or 30 years from now, when Russia will be out of gas reserves and surrounded by disgruntled neighbours it tried to bully by cutting off their heating in the dead of winter it will have a harder time to muscle it's way into their business after that, and I doubt many will feel much sympathy.

Edited by wilmet, 06 June 2007 - 07:30 AM.

I think a nation with 16,000 nuclear warheads is very much on the world political stage. And Russia's gas reserves are more than twenty years, at least double that which is why so much infrastructure and investment is being sent in to explore the gas fields.

Pointing nuclear missiles at Europe is more of a symbolic thing, I can't imagine it takes long to change a missiles destination. It was only sent to worry the countries that don't have nukes. Russian missiles if destined for the States wouldn't even fly over Europe, more likely over the North Pole.

I'm confused. What Ali said actually made sense.

It's pointless either way. Point them Alaska's way from the Russian side of the Bering Strait.

But if Russia goes at us or the US, whoever they didn't target would begin nuclearising Russia.

Either way, Bush is even sharing the tech so what's the issue? I must say that this is perhaps one of the most sensible (Lucid?) moments of Bush's conducting of foreign affairs.

Edited by Paradox, 06 June 2007 - 07:44 PM.

I think a nation with 16,000 nuclear warheads is very much on the world political stage.

How many of those are still usable after a decade and a half of chronic underfunding? Not that it matters as they will never be used...

And Russia's gas reserves are more than twenty years, at least double that which is why so much infrastructure and investment is being sent in to explore the gas fields.

I'll try to dig up that story I read about it being less rosy than it seems (something about them not being able to maintain current production levels). At any rate, they're puting all their eggs in one basket with oil and gas.

Either way, Bush is even sharing the tech so what's the issue? I must say that this is perhaps one of the most sensible (Lucid?) moments of Bush's conducting of foreign affairs.

It good soundbite for the home crowd I guess. Pissing off the yankees. I think though that they're just not happy about America setting up shop on Russia's turf. They consider eastern europe to be "theirs" and don't take too kindly to the west and NATO creeping up close and closer.

Ali, do you have anything useful to contribute to this forum at all?


But in other news, what the hell? I mean, seriously. Why's he pointing missiles at Europe in the first place? Point them at the bloody US. I mean, I understand the need to preserve one's power and ego but at the same time, I fail to see what purpose that serves other than to turn everyone against you. There is no legitimate justification for aiming missiles at Europe.

But then, you forget that it is Russian politics as usual.

It good soundbite for the home crowd I guess. Pissing off the yankees. I think though that they're just not happy about America setting up shop on Russia's turf. They consider eastern europe to be "theirs" and don't take too kindly to the west and NATO creeping up close and closer.

What's really ridiculous is that the part of the US missile shield in Alaska is already in place, and that is just as much on Russia's doorstep as Eastern Europe it, but they don't care about that because Alaska is not a former Soviet colony.

Actually Russia did used to own Alaska and sold it to the US.

For $25 million if I remember correctly...

Poor Russians, still clinging to the tactics of the old days but should realise that intimidation tactic is getting real old and its not in best interests of russia.

Plus the fact of sharing the tech should be acceptable compromise.

Actually Russia did used to own Alaska and sold it to the US.

For $25 million if I remember correctly...

for almost $20 million less. they sold it for $7.2 million in 1867 and in the 1890s we found gold and we likely got all of that $7.2 million back

Wikipedia is fun

I think a nation with 16,000 nuclear warheads is very much on the world political stage.

How many of those are still usable after a decade and a half of chronic underfunding? Not that it matters as they will never be used...

And Russia's gas reserves are more than twenty years, at least double that which is why so much infrastructure and investment is being sent in to explore the gas fields.

I'll try to dig up that story I read about it being less rosy than it seems (something about them not being able to maintain current production levels). At any rate, they're puting all their eggs in one basket with oil and gas.

Either way, Bush is even sharing the tech so what's the issue? I must say that this is perhaps one of the most sensible (Lucid?) moments of Bush's conducting of foreign affairs.

It good soundbite for the home crowd I guess. Pissing off the yankees. I think though that they're just not happy about America setting up shop on Russia's turf. They consider eastern europe to be "theirs" and don't take too kindly to the west and NATO creeping up close and closer.

Nuclear warheads can survive for long periods of time, the Russians build theirs to stand the most extreme conditions of heat, cold, salinity and humidity for all the varying climates in the USSR. Russia will be able to survive economically even with 20 years of gas, they can just sell their nuclear knowledge to various undesirables and oligarks keep buying up football clubs in Europe everyone will be happy. Basically if Russia continues its stance the rest of Europe excluding the UK and France is fucked as they lack the power to threaten Europe because they were too involved in peaceniking to build weapon programmes of their own.