Yoda vs. Sidious

I'd say Yoda. I don't have a compelling reason or a high-flown argument like the rest of you, though.

i hope all you people realise that according to george lucas palpatine is the most powerful force user in the saga and that if anakin had not fallen into the lava on mustafar he would have potentually become twice as strong but as it stands after mustafar anakin was left with about 80% of the power that palpatine possesses.
so that is the basis of my belief i challenge you who think yoda is stronger to a proper argument based on a series of connected intellectual propositions a proper debate. and to the person who quoted dark redouvous statements by george lucas trumps even the movies with regards to cannonicity.

i will give you that yoda is powerful i will give you that he is wise and knowledgable but you have to admit yoda is old if you equate his lifespan to that of a human beings he is at least 87 while palps is more or less in his 50s or 60s the force it is accepted takes a large physical burden on its user it is likely that as a sith lord palpatines power takes an even more terrible toll but you all forget yoda is old continual draw on the force would weaken himover time he just cannot fight on that level for a sustained period any longer you see it with him relying on the cane he can bypass his age but only for a while

now ill admit i actually love yoda hes sort of like my favourite character in the saga but he is old here it he is old while he can fight palpatine on the same level as a master of the force he cannot i believe sustain that level of exertion as long as palpatine palpatine who wields such tremendous power whose very order is built around such power id imagine would have far more staying power

besides palpatine is so much more ruthless and ultimately efficent watch how he cuts down the members of the jedi council one of which was a jedi swordmaster he cuts them down using the flow of the strike to allow him to cut down the next, his battle with the jedi wasnt fought for him to win, he already had it was to be used as means to convert anakin skywalker it was what he had waited so paitently so intently for , in some ways i regard it as being his major failing, he was so obsessed with the idea of having anakin as his apprentice that he didnt slay windu when he clearly had the oppurtunity instead he allowed windu to best him with the saber allowed his visage to be scared (perhaps as a means to even better convince the senate of the jedi threat)

he nis the consumate manipulator but in many ways yoda is his equal his only advantage over yoda aside from pure power is off course yodas own age, yoda by the revenge of the sith is to old to be able to defeat him he can fight him he could even push him back but it would appear that he cannot defeat him, i think this is best emphasied with how yoda flees rather than to rejoin battle with him

on another note do any of you believe that if palpatine had fought windu with the same ferocity as he assaulted the little green troll that windu wouldve survived off course not windu was a great sword master but he was no yoda
yoda was the best swordsmaster in the order his only limitation being oh yeah his age

Now that goes into something else entirely, and besides this isn't a what lucas thinks thing, it's what you think based on what we see in the movies, not what has been extrapolated and speculated outside of it. Lucas may have had an opinion about Sidious outside of the movies but he never translated those ideas effectively in the movies. Sure Yoda flees, but this is due in part the fact that he lost his saber. I find it hard to believe that Yoda would have lost, it would have been a huge struggle maybe even Yoda would've died in the process but I think in the end he would have defeated him. He was capable of not only absorbing darkside energy but also turning it on the Sith lord himself. And I think the force is alot more sustainable, dark side energy takes its toll in a very physical sense, which is why I think Sidious was reluctant to use it until he was fighting the greater Jedi. Sidious sustained use of the force in combat would've killed him so it's one of those things we'll never really know because in order to effectively combat Yoda he would've had to expend alot of energy thus weakening him to the point where Yoda would've defeated him.

Aside from that I thoroughly believe that someone with saber skills of Windu would have been more than capable of defeating Sidious. Whether or not Sidious threw the fight in order to convert Anakin is irrelevant, again the toll his continuous use of the force was taking had to be more than aesthetic, he was becoming weaker.

Edited by Ed Of The 3rd Kind, 25 May 2009 - 04:07 PM.

We're not talking about Dooku at all.

Ohhh... My bad. When I'm forced to put the Darth in, I always think of Doku. But Sideous would still win in a fair one on one battle IN ONE ROOM WITH NO STUPID OBSTACLES THAT CAN BE USED AGAINST EACH OTHER. Yoda just hid and threw stuff in their battle...

Sidious. Pardon my long post, but here's my views on the matters;

instead he allowed windu to best him with the saber allowed his visage to be scared (perhaps as a means to even better convince the senate of the jedi threat)

Well, he obviously got scarred because of this.. First off, I don't think he'd ever put his force lightning on forever if not
Second, I doubt he'd lose to Windu at all, because he needed to push Anakin over the edge, so there would be no turning back for him
Third, he kills off 3 in the Order in 3 seconds, and keeps on fighting Windu... I seriously doubt that's because Windu is superior to him, it's just a way to get Anakin over for cookies

And to the Yoda matter... I seriously don't know for sure, because... well, it's a tough one As Sidious says, Anakin would have become more powerful than either of them.. And, as been said in topic, Anakin got crippeled at Mustafar... So, that issue doesn't mean anything to the Yoda vs Sidious issue, because Yoda never face Anakin... Anakin however, is beaten by Obi Wan, much because of his aggresive attitude I believe, uncontolled anger, and Obi Wan would not best Yoda

I think I'll agree with the point that Yoda saw that he wouldn't be the one to bring balance to the force by killing Sidious... Because that is an issue too
Anakin was said to destroy the Sith, to bring balance to the force, so Yoda couldn't have beaten Sidious, because he was not the one to destroy the Sith, Anakin was... Sidious was the Sith, so Yoda couldn't have killed him... Anakin was to kill him... Or, as I was wondering before, Luke was... Yeah, I was thinking if it wasn't Anakin, but his son, that was to destroy the Sith He only convinced his dad though, so that's a no...

I believe that's everything addressed... Sidious can't be killed or beaten by anyone, except Anakin Skywalker, Darth Vader.

He wasn't scarred because of Mace's saber skills. He was so powerful in the Dark Side that he mutilated his face with his power. He just used Sith Alchemy to cover up the rotted flesh so as not to creep out the already-suspicious Jedi... or make them suspect him to begin with. He chose to strip the mask off his face and reveal his true self in order to make Anakin feel sorry for him.

cil thats only claimed in truth we dont know someones been reading wookiepedia for to long


and ed there are points in the saber duel where palps couldve easily skewered the bald bastard that is to me the proof that he was merely playing for time, he needed to arrange anakin to do something which would be completely unforgivable and assiting in the death of master windu well thats about as unforgivable as one gets he needed anakin to have no where else to turn to have no hope at all.

by your reckoning ed windu is better with a saber than palpatine palpatine who has at least a basic mastery of all seven styles (vapaad dont count thats just based on joyu the correct seventh style forgive me if i spelt it wrong)

Edited by Annullus The Grey, 25 May 2009 - 08:13 PM.

He wasn't scarred because of Mace's saber skills. He was so powerful in the Dark Side that he mutilated his face with his power. He just used Sith Alchemy to cover up the rotted flesh so as not to creep out the already-suspicious Jedi... or make them suspect him to begin with. He chose to strip the mask off his face and reveal his true self in order to make Anakin feel sorry for him.

@Annullus: Your other post is poorly written, but I think you're trying to say that Yoda couldn't keep up the fight for long. He could, thanks to Force Valor and his tremendous Force power. He could hold off Palpatine, who wasn't exactly much of a physical brute like Anakin or Mace either, indefinately.

EDIT: Somehow, my post got messed up. I didn't think it posted last time, as it didn't reload the screen... so I decided to make some edits and repost.

Edited by CIL, 25 May 2009 - 08:09 PM.

my post is perfectly written your taking quotes from wookiepedia and wikipedia respectively they are questionable at best. force valor as anything but a power from kotor is questionable so i disagree with that

i could off course take statements from there and substantiate my arguments even more but i wont. with regards to my style of writing i will admit it is convoluted but it is more or less how i think things through

also cil using the force takes a physical toll no matter how you use it, it will drain you and so my argument is that yodas advanced age and thus his frailty would ultimately end with him in a situation where the drain of using the force would leave him physically exhausted and by the laws of entrophy he would have to run out of steam otherwise thier is no such thing as perpetual movement without perpetual power and as yoda said the force has limits well ones ability to manipulate it has limits

Edited by Annullus The Grey, 25 May 2009 - 08:20 PM.

I reckon it would have to be a draw.

Yoda = Sid

Yoda_ > Yoda
Yoda_ > Sid

In my opinion.... I would own them.
On a serious note, I personally think bad guys win in both cases, seeing as Sid is practically Death with a Lightsaber. And Force Lightning and stuff.

This is getting way too heated...

Definitely, well everyone has their favourites so it's not something that people will back down on But I think it's pretty much agreed that it'd be a stalemate most likely. unless there are more votes for Yoda/ Sidious

Yoda. Force Ghost > mob of clones

my post is perfectly written your taking quotes from wookiepedia and wikipedia respectively they are questionable at best. force valor as anything but a power from kotor is questionable so i disagree with that

i could off course take statements from there and substantiate my arguments even more but i wont. with regards to my style of writing i will admit it is convoluted but it is more or less how i think things through

also cil using the force takes a physical toll no matter how you use it, it will drain you and so my argument is that yodas advanced age and thus his frailty would ultimately end with him in a situation where the drain of using the force would leave him physically exhausted and by the laws of entrophy he would have to run out of steam otherwise thier is no such thing as perpetual movement without perpetual power and as yoda said the force has limits well ones ability to manipulate it has limits

Firstly, where are the punctuation, capitalization and proper clause combonations? It's quite difficult to wade through that disaster zone and trying to discern the points at first glance. Secondly, my statements are not from Wookiepedia. I had generated my own theories about Sidious' mask after finding out about Sith Alchemy from a perfectly fine canonical source. Lastly, Force Valor is used to negate the physical draining. It's perfectly canonical. It's not KotOR only. So long as Yoda kept using it, he could put off the duel. He could probably use it almost indefinitely because of his immense might in the Force.

Really quickly, there is one thing that Yoda says, I believe in the book, that really may turn the tide of this. Yoda says that he knew he had lost the minute the duel began. He attempted to defeat Sidious nonetheless, however, and it turned out to be a spectacular duel. It's a shame we couldn't see more.

Edited by CIL, 27 May 2009 - 07:26 AM.

your forgeting one thing using imense might in the force weakens you physically. it reduces the likes of Luke Skywalker said to possess power equal to Anakin, to a burnt out husk when he uses it to send out a galaxy wide force beacon during the dark nest crisis.
you see the force still follows the laws of physics and one of those is entropy.
thus using the force you cannot enhance yourself past a point and you cannot use the force to prevent yourself from suffering the efffects of your own force usage.

with regards to the mask i only pointed out that it isnt canonical that Palpatine used it only that he could wield similar powers. sith alchemy is cannon i do agree and if i was allowed to i would be coding it in as a power for palpatine to turn men into beasts

i have not in any source other than in cannon heard reference to the force power "force valour" in anything but kotor.
there are techniques in the force that enhance the body but they are unnamed, i wasnt taking point with the implied use of such powers, but i disagree with the name as it is how the wikipedia article discribes Yoda.

yes that book is something i remember as well and iirc the screenplay also mentioned something to a similar effect (something about Yoda knowing he couldnt win outright but was going to try and take palps with him)

the major point ive been trying to make though is that at Yoda's age he just couldnt beat palpatine outright, about the best he could hope for is to take him with him or buy time.

oh and forgive my punctuation ive been using forums and the like since the days when most browsers where run on commandline, back then you didnt worry bout punctuation just making sure your posts where actually posted

The stats currently read that Yoda would win, with a stalemate just trailing. I propose that if it's doable, that using the forces drains health from the user as a representative of the toll it takes or atleast lowers the armor in order to settle the debate. That way it's up to the player, if the player uses a strong force power then that is reflected in the behaviour of the unit. In that way it's purely up to the tactics of the player to determine the outcome.

For example Sidious would specialise in offensive powers, where as Yoda would specialise in defensive. So Yoda would have the typical Jedi powers with the addition of optional buffs to health or armor, however the use of such powers would weaken the opposing upgrade, like health although adds health to the unit, it minuses their armor making them more susceptible to attack. Sidious' power would focus highly on attack, using force lightning would almost cripple him but in that way it would also almost kill Yoda... and if in retaliation Yoda were to use his force healing power then his armor is weakened leaving him more open to attack. So you see it really would be up to the choices of the player to determine strength versus weaknesses. How does that sound?

Does it even make sense?

How about you just give the powers and not go messing with armor and health and the sort?

i can do what he asks i think ability chaining and stuff like that what ill probably do is attribute modifiers not health damamge and things like force heal will not be an instant heal, they will be a large increase in the healing rate over time, like the healing trances of the eu novels, it makes more sense and is more balanced.
i actually though do thing there needs to be a more complex dynamic with regards to force powers, i will try and see if i can add an additional force damage type to but you will see once i finnish playing with the more complex coding, which wont be for a while as atm im working primarily on implemented essentials like models and button art

Concerning the in-game stats of Yoda, Mace and Sidious, I believe that Mace should have weaker normal attack than both of them (we will just assume he's not using Vaapad, which is when he's outdueled by Yoda, Dooku and the likes of them) and then gets a blademaster thing with an additional 50% more attack damage than Yoda's, Dooku's or Sidious'.

A clever idea I had would be making Yoda gradually lose health whilst he used a Force Valor-like, but he could use it indefinitely: you press the button to turn it on and off.