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#61 anakinskysolo

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Posted 20 December 2009 - 09:09 PM

Even if Veers was able to land outside the shield's range, how did he cross the shield barrier with his walkers? It seems that the only explanation is that the shield was only able to deflect energy and not matter, but then why didn't the Imperials send fighters to the surface? This would have been a much better strategy than walkers, as apparently the Rebels were better equipped to fight walkers than fighters, and even if they weren't, sending fighters to the surface would have surely made the Imperial victory easier. About the Coruscant shield, it is clear that it was two way. Remember that they always had to lower the shield in order to let ships out, and the Lusankya needed to overload a small portion of the shield in order to pass through. It seems to me that the only reasonable explanation is that the Lusankya was powerful enough to make a small hole in the shield in order to pass, and although the Executor could have made this small hole too, the time required to make it was too much and would have permitted the Rebels to escape, and it would also have required the Executor making a very difficult maneuver in order to point its nose towards the planet in order to bring all its weapons to bear on the shield, like the Lusankya did. On an unrelated topic, what the hell is happening to the forum? It is very difficult for me to write messages and its difficult to navigate.

#62 Kaleb Graff

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Posted 20 December 2009 - 10:26 PM

I've pointed out here before that the Battle of Coruscant almost certainly takes place with all of the ships involved on repulsor.

I really enjoyed that thread- I actually emailed a link to it to my physics professor. :p

As to the strength of the Coruscant shields, I think that Zahn indicates that it could pretty well annihilate any unshielded matter to come into contact with it (Project Stardust transtport). Admiral Ackbar's comments of the Ukio shield (the Empire could develop a method to penetrate a shield by stressing it with projected energy) seem to indicate that, if a vessel had shielding strong enough to compete with it, it would be possible to get through unscathed. As the Executor-class was the only vessel as of Endor that had engines strong enough to initiate a full planetary grav-shock, it seems reasonable that their own shielding could sufficiently negate a planetary shield to slip through. I can only assume that this is not taken advantage of because their repulsors are not normally strong enough to sustain flight at that altitude.

I don't even think that the Executor has repuslors, as they had to make a cradle for the Lusankya. That could be another reason they couldn't bombard: none of the ships could hold position long enough at short enough range to be effective.


Even if Veers was able to land outside the shield's range, how did he cross the shield barrier with his walkers? It seems that the only explanation is that the shield was only able to deflect energy and not matter, but then why didn't the Imperials send fighters to the surface? This would have been a much better strategy than walkers, as apparently the Rebels were better equipped to fight walkers than fighters, and even if they weren't, sending fighters to the surface would have surely made the Imperial victory easier. About the Coruscant shield, it is clear that it was two way. Remember that they always had to lower the shield in order to let ships out, and the Lusankya needed to overload a small portion of the shield in order to pass through. It seems to me that the only reasonable explanation is that the Lusankya was powerful enough to make a small hole in the shield in order to pass, and although the Executor could have made this small hole too, the time required to make it was too much and would have permitted the Rebels to escape, and it would also have required the Executor making a very difficult maneuver in order to point its nose towards the planet in order to bring all its weapons to bear on the shield, like the Lusankya did.

I'm of the opinion that the reason the walkers could get through was that they were grounded, which is why they were used. The bigger problem with said maneuver was that sight times from low orbit would have been to low to allow it. It took Lusankya a while to make a hole, but not that long. Even then, it wasn't exactly a small hole, as it had to fit a ship that was a couple of kilometers across.

#63 Tropical Bob

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Posted 20 December 2009 - 11:13 PM

As to the strength of the Coruscant shields, I think that Zahn indicates that it could pretty well annihilate any unshielded matter to come into contact with it (Project Stardust transtport). Admiral Ackbar's comments of the Ukio shield (the Empire could develop a method to penetrate a shield by stressing it with projected energy) seem to indicate that, if a vessel had shielding strong enough to compete with it, it would be possible to get through unscathed. As the Executor-class was the only vessel as of Endor that had engines strong enough to initiate a full planetary grav-shock, it seems reasonable that their own shielding could sufficiently negate a planetary shield to slip through. I can only assume that this is not taken advantage of because their repulsors are not normally strong enough to sustain flight at that altitude.

Also remember that the Yuuzhan Vong rammed at least several dozen, maybe even hundreds of, passenger ships into the shields to lower them in order to get their landers through unscathed. Debris from many ships also fell into the shields on at least a couple mentioned occasions.

1. Number of systems: The Executor reactor's putting all of it's power into a wide variety of systems, guessing primarily shields and a whole bunch of guns for the Hoth operation. The Praetor reactor is just powering the planetary shield and the one starship grade ion cannon. So , while the Hoth reactor is undoubtedly smaller, it can put a larger fraction of its power into the shield.

Maybe a good reference for those who may not exactly get it: it's along the lines of computers working better at lower temperatures. You can sustain much better performance for a longer period of time before anything is in danger of overheating. In essence, the Hoth reactor was an Intel Core i7 super-overclocked and soaked in liquid nitrogen.

2. Space vs. ground. Kaleb, you've got Attack Vector so you know all about radiators. If you want way too much detail you can read more in the first few chapters of my master's thesis. But the skinny is that radiation is the only way to get rid of heat from a spacecraft. But conduction is a much easier way to get rid of heat. So space reactors are at a disadvantage vs ground based reactor since the ground based unit can use the planet they're on as a heat sink. That implies that the Preator reactor might be able to operate at higher power in a ground based installation than it could in a Star-Battlecruiser. Note that this argument would appear to work regardless of the radiation type employed (SW ships appear to use neutrino radiators-no idea how).

v/r
feld

Holy Jebus, that's an intense topic. I'm a 'sort of physics whiz' (At least conceptually), and that's all jibberish to me. Also, I could never write 147 pages on the same topic. I admire your focus.

I should also point out that many planetary shields are, in fact, comprised of a network of shield generators. Ukio had something like 30 individual generators. I'm not sure there is such a thing as a singular planetary shield generator, but I'll leave that for someone else to debate.

I'm sure Coruscant had more. I don't remember the details exactly, but didn't Rogue Squadron bring down only a fraction of the planetary shield by neutralizing one generator?

Even if Veers was able to land outside the shield's range, how did he cross the shield barrier with his walkers? It seems that the only explanation is that the shield was only able to deflect energy and not matter, but then why didn't the Imperials send fighters to the surface? This would have been a much better strategy than walkers, as apparently the Rebels were better equipped to fight walkers than fighters, and even if they weren't, sending fighters to the surface would have surely made the Imperial victory easier.

It might be that shielding tends to lose its focus and/or intensity as it comes into contact with surfaces. As in, at ground level, the shielding was either too weak to harm the AT-AT's armor or nonexistent. Flying at terrain level on a blizzard-planet could be extremely dangerous, not only from the weather, but from the concentrated Rebel defenses. Most Imperial commanders would probably laugh at the losses involved, but Darth Vader usually seems to try and not waste personnel and resources.

#64 Kaleb Graff

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Posted 20 December 2009 - 11:18 PM

It might be that shielding tends to lose its focus and/or intensity as it comes into contact with surfaces. As in, at ground level, the shielding was either too weak to harm the AT-AT's armor or nonexistent. Flying at terrain level on a blizzard-planet could be extremely dangerous, not only from the weather, but from the concentrated Rebel defenses. Most Imperial commanders would probably laugh at the losses involved, but Darth Vader usually seems to try and not waste personnel and resources.

Are you serious? Read that again. What do you call killing anyone who displeases him?

#65 muneyoshi

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Posted 20 December 2009 - 11:44 PM

It might be that shielding tends to lose its focus and/or intensity as it comes into contact with surfaces. As in, at ground level, the shielding was either too weak to harm the AT-AT's armor or nonexistent. Flying at terrain level on a blizzard-planet could be extremely dangerous, not only from the weather, but from the concentrated Rebel defenses. Most Imperial commanders would probably laugh at the losses involved, but Darth Vader usually seems to try and not waste personnel and resources.

Are you serious? Read that again. What do you call killing anyone who displeases him?

I believe he means on a larger scale and not the individuals that pissed him off. I happen to agree.. it's one thing to excute an idiot commander.. it's another to send hundreds of pilots to their deaths FOR NO GOOD reason.. even to Vader... I believe..

#66 feld

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Posted 21 December 2009 - 12:10 AM

I don't even think that the Executor has repuslors, as they had to make a cradle for the Lusankya.

Hmmm...your comment on Lusankya indicates that you may be thinking that I'm saying that because Executor has repulsors that I think she was designed to land on them. Not at all! Far from it! I think that she's got repulsors because they are much more fuel efficient and convenient way to move a starship the size of an asteroid around near planets...which is really where such a ship will spend most of her time in realspace. I don't think that she was built to land on a normal gravity world. No reason to. That's why Lusankya needed her repulsorsled for liftoff.

I guess now's a bad time to point out that the Battle of Endor takes place under much the same orbital dynamics conditions as the Battle of Coruscant? The Battle of Endor consists of a fight in an orbit that is pretty clearly below geostationary (Recall that DS 2 was not just shielded from Endor, it was also wrapped in a repulsor field). All the ships are pointing as much as 180 degrees apart for the whole battle...they're either maneuvering on repulsor or *maybe* we can retcon that they're "borrowing" the fringe of the DS2's field. Either way, they're not in orbit in the sense that a physicist would use the term. Therefore, something else is holding them up. The only sublight propulsion systems that the canon gives me are rockets and repulsors. Rockets don't make any sense with observed canon and physics. So I think that Executor has repulsors.

That could be another reason they couldn't bombard: none of the ships could hold position long enough at short enough range to be effective.

Building an ISD without them in a universe where it is quite clearly feasible (Venator's clearly have them) is extremely difficult for me to accept. Why the heck would they do it? Can you think of any reason? I'm trying to see your argument here and I'm struggling. I mean , an ISD is basically a glorified troop ship. Why wouldn't they give it the repulsor technology to stay in stationary position relative to the surface and support its troops. Doesn't make any sense.

It might be that shielding tends to lose its focus and/or intensity as it comes into contact with surfaces. As in, at ground level, the shielding was either too weak to harm the AT-AT's armor or nonexistent. Flying at terrain level on a blizzard-planet could be extremely dangerous, not only from the weather, but from the concentrated Rebel defenses. Most Imperial commanders would probably laugh at the losses involved, but Darth Vader usually seems to try and not waste personnel and resources.

Are you serious? Read that again. What do you call killing anyone who displeases him?

I call that "holding the leadership to a higher standard ":p
Watch Anakin: he gives a darn about troopers in the Clone Wars era movies, cartoons, and books. Less so in the later part of his life...but, then again, I don't see Grand Moff Tarkin hopping into a T.I.E. and doing a trench run to try and save his beloved battlestation. I think that Vader (for all that he is an evil bastard) really does expect his leaders to operate at a higher standard. Probably explains part of the reason that his stormtroopers so willingly die for him. He kills leadership for not being able to pull off the impossible like he would have (back in the day). Seriously disturbed dude...psychologists dream actually...except for the hideous death awaiting anyone who ever asked him to talk about his mother...

v/r
feld

Edited by feld, 21 December 2009 - 12:18 AM.


#67 Kaleb Graff

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Posted 21 December 2009 - 03:00 AM

I don't even think that the Executor has repuslors, as they had to make a cradle for the Lusankya.

Hmmm...your comment on Lusankya indicates that you may be thinking that I'm saying that because Executor has repulsors that I think she was designed to land on them. Not at all! Far from it! I think that she's got repulsors because they are much more fuel efficient and convenient way to move a starship the size of an asteroid around near planets...which is really where such a ship will spend most of her time in realspace. I don't think that she was built to land on a normal gravity world. No reason to. That's why Lusankya needed her repulsorsled for liftoff.

I guess now's a bad time to point out that the Battle of Endor takes place under much the same orbital dynamics conditions as the Battle of Coruscant? The Battle of Endor consists of a fight in an orbit that is pretty clearly below geostationary (Recall that DS 2 was not just shielded from Endor, it was also wrapped in a repulsor field). All the ships are pointing as much as 180 degrees apart for the whole battle...they're either maneuvering on repulsor or *maybe* we can retcon that they're "borrowing" the fringe of the DS2's field. Either way, they're not in orbit in the sense that a physicist would use the term. Therefore, something else is holding them up. The only sublight propulsion systems that the canon gives me are rockets and repulsors. Rockets don't make any sense with observed canon and physics. So I think that Executor has repulsors.

That could be another reason they couldn't bombard: none of the ships could hold position long enough at short enough range to be effective.

Building an ISD without them in a universe where it is quite clearly feasible (Venator's clearly have them) is extremely difficult for me to accept. Why the heck would they do it? Can you think of any reason? I'm trying to see your argument here and I'm struggling. I mean , an ISD is basically a glorified troop ship. Why wouldn't they give it the repulsor technology to stay in stationary position relative to the surface and support its troops. Doesn't make any sense.

v/r
feld

I have a point, and a question:
I'm trying to figure out the lower limit of the Executor's repulsorlift acceleration, but the canonical radius disagrees by a factor of two with the Saxon radius, which is the only real source for altitude, so I'm not sure which to use, and it could change the numbers drastically. However, Saxon provides no figure, so I guess I'll scale it to a 1000 km altitude.
The short answer for my calculations is that assuming geosync and a 1000 km altitude, the repulsors have to be capable of 4.173 m/s2. I'm going to try again using Saxon's numbers in the morning.
There are several sources that state unequivocally that an ImpStar can't enter an atmosphere, such as the old EGVV. I personally take that over more recent depictions. Also, the Venator is, on many levels, an incredible example of Hollywood SciFi. I won't go into details, but it reaches the point of someone being contrarian.

Edited by Kaleb Graff, 21 December 2009 - 03:16 AM.


#68 Tropical Bob

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Posted 21 December 2009 - 03:45 AM

To me, the lines leading up to the Imperial-class were designed to personally load and unload troops, materiel, and other such things, directly onto the surface of a planet. I'd imagine the spiritual successor to such ships would be able to be somewhat of a staging platform for planetary landings, especially given the garrison present on the ships. Which I think would imply some sort of altitude launche, instead of something at long distance to the planet.

#69 Kaleb Graff

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Posted 21 December 2009 - 04:00 AM

To me, the lines leading up to the Imperial-class were designed to personally load and unload troops, materiel, and other such things, directly onto the surface of a planet. I'd imagine the spiritual successor to such ships would be able to be somewhat of a staging platform for planetary landings, especially given the garrison present on the ships. Which I think would imply some sort of altitude launche, instead of something at long distance to the planet.

That's not really true. I believe that the Impstar was based on the Praetor hull, which was a ship-to-ship platform. Also, when you look at the Vic, it wasn't too much of a carrier. The problem is really that people get the lines of descent confused. Also, any big hyper-capable ship would be heavily compromised by being capable of atmospheric flight. http://www.projectrh...html#specialize
Lastly, bringing something that big into the atmosphere on a regular basis is stupid. What happens if the repuslors fail or are sabotaged. I've actually used said sabotage in an RPG game to destroy an imp spaceport.

#70 Pellean

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Posted 21 December 2009 - 01:08 PM

Even if Veers was able to land outside the shield's range, how did he cross the shield barrier with his walkers?

It was my impression that the shield terminated some distance above the surface. Wasting the power of a shield whose primary mission is to prevent bombardment and other overhead threats on frying glaciers seems pretty redundant to me. Also, if shields are conductive, which is likely based on many descriptions of ozone and discharge effects, having them meet the surface would ground them, causing constant loss of power.

Lastly, bringing something that big into the atmosphere on a regular basis is stupid. What happens if the repuslors fail or are sabotaged. I've actually used said sabotage in an RPG game to destroy an imp spaceport.

That must have been one heck of an adventure. Of course, the collateral damage would be terrible, but, as they're Imperials...

I think that Vader (for all that he is an evil bastard) really does expect his leaders to operate at a higher standard. Probably explains part of the reason that his stormtroopers so willingly die for him.

I agree. Darth Vader constantly leads from the front and by example- historically, this inspires troops like nothing else (look at Caesar and Saladin). There is quite a difference between following orders from some high-ranker who has never seen action and is kilometers above the field in a nice safe star destroyer and following orders from a leader who is charging into the same situation he just told you to.
Don't think, Fingan, you aren't properly equipped for it.

#71 Kaleb Graff

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Posted 21 December 2009 - 03:18 PM

Lastly, bringing something that big into the atmosphere on a regular basis is stupid. What happens if the repuslors fail or are sabotaged. I've actually used said sabotage in an RPG game to destroy an imp spaceport.

That must have been one heck of an adventure. Of course, the collateral damage would be terrible, but, as they're Imperials...

The ship was an Acclamator, and was about a kilometer up, as they were using it for fire support, so it just trashed the spaceport.

#72 Tropical Bob

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Posted 21 December 2009 - 07:25 PM

I don't think it's very often that a Rebel saboteur would manage to sneak onto a warship and disable the repulsors on his own. I'd say the entire system wouldn't be linked to one grid, preventing one act of sabotage, and would have some sort of back-up system for something so important. One kilometer might not have been enough distance for the backups to activate, or maybe Acclamators didn't have very well designed systems.

I did say the lines leading up to the Imperial-class, you know. Not to say that it was directly based off of the Acclamator- and Venator-classes, but they certainly must have had some inspiration for it, especially with the garrison aspect. Maybe the Imperial-class was based off of designs more fit for ship-to-ship combat, but the Empire seems to have made an effort to bring its head ship of the line more towards its fighting troopships of the past. And as it's been said before, having the transport in the atmosphere would decrease the time that the shuttles from the ship are vulnerable, as well as allowing for fire support like the Acclamator you mentioned above.

#73 Kaleb Graff

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Posted 21 December 2009 - 07:38 PM

It was sort of elaborate, involving multiple teams to take out the backups. The city was in a canyon, and the Acclamator was the transport. Even then, in an assault situation, which this was not, bringing big ships in close is a bad idea. Look at the core ships in Episode II. The biggest problem is that we have no idea how repuslors works, and there are several contradictory indicators, ranging from distances of 6 planetary diameters to barely floating. Honestly, until we know more, we really can't answer the question.
Also, using a ship like that against conventional enemies is stupid. All the other guy has to have is a starship-grade ion cannon that can get through your shields. If they disable you at a kilometer under standard gravity, you'll have about 14 seconds to reset your repulsors before you hit. It's like trying to bombard targets right on the coastline with a battleship and sailing in as close as possible. You've got limited room to maneuver, are rather obvious to anyone and everyone, and are vulnerable to anyone with a missile, and you can't see them any better than if you were over the horizon.

Edited by Kaleb Graff, 21 December 2009 - 09:36 PM.


#74 Phoenix Rising

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Posted 22 December 2009 - 07:00 PM

The biggest problem is that we have no idea how repuslors works, and there are several contradictory indicators, ranging from distances of 6 planetary diameters to barely floating.

D6 lists stats for vehicle altitude ranges, so presumably it's variable depending on power output or repulsor quality.

#75 Kaleb Graff

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Posted 22 December 2009 - 09:16 PM

I know, but the performance is often baffling. I've seen the maximum range listed at 6 planetary diameters, but most landspeeders can't get very high at all, meaning they have to be pushing off the surface, which is very odd. Also, we have hugely differing numbers on ship repulsor power and range. I know what they do, it's the how that matters, however.

#76 Tropical Bob

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Posted 23 December 2009 - 07:14 AM

It's probably some sort of reactionless 'push' that either 'pushes' off of the surface of any object with mass, or at the center of mass of an object.

The landspeeders could still be pushing off of the center of mass of the planet, they just are given enough power to get a planet's radius and the small change to keep them off the surface.

#77 Kaleb Graff

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Posted 23 December 2009 - 03:33 PM

I don't think that works, because then they couldn't climb hills. Also, in Showdown at Centerpoint, repulsors pushed off the atmosphere as they descended.

#78 BansheeMalthus

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Posted 23 December 2009 - 10:27 PM

I don't think that works, because then they couldn't climb hills. Also, in Showdown at Centerpoint, repulsors pushed off the atmosphere as they descended.

What about them working off of friction created/generated? This would make some sense seeing working off atmospheres, and the max height for snow speeders. On hoth the higher you went the thinner the air got, reducing the amount of friction available for such a small craft. Bty the same token, an Acclamator or Vic coming through the atmosphere would be producing its own friction just by re-entry, thereby enabling its repulsorlifts to function, at least a little. Just a theory mind you.

#79 Phoenix Rising

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Posted 24 December 2009 - 03:03 AM

Also, in Showdown at Centerpoint, repulsors pushed off the atmosphere as they descended.

There is such a thing as a hovercraft that uses an air cushion for flotation. I'd like to think that any reference to "hover" in a vehicle's name operates on this technology, but undoubtedly there's a lot of technical ignorance with the term. Hmm, that probably doesn't help much if SaC was dealing with ships...

#80 Kaleb Graff

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Posted 24 December 2009 - 03:35 AM

Also, in Showdown at Centerpoint, repulsors pushed off the atmosphere as they descended.

There is such a thing as a hovercraft that uses an air cushion for flotation. I'd like to think that any reference to "hover" in a vehicle's name operates on this technology, but undoubtedly there's a lot of technical ignorance with the term. Hmm, that probably doesn't help much if SaC was dealing with ships...

This was during the mess with the coneship, which, though a piece of junk, was actually interplanetary-capable. Also, I'm a big hoverscout fan, and want to see it in the mod soon.



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