Flying units

i honestly think flying units should be restricted to:

Gwaihir - Lorien (Eagle's Nest ) no more other eagle
Drogoth - Moria (Dragon's Nest) no more fire drakes, even for treasure trove, although there is a power that can summon two of them to the battlefield (see spellbook thread)
NO MORE fellbeasts for isengard
NO MORE eagles for gondor and erebor
I'm okay with there being the nazgul able to mount fellbeasts.

kinda OP for evil as they get lik 11 flying units and good only getz 2. i always liked watching giant flying battles between eagles,nazguls, and those dragon things

It kind of OP indeed ,How about some of nazgul not able to mount fellbeasts.

And don't remove any eagles for good side.

The fells are fairly "easy" to take down, using fire arrows, so I'd say the Nazgûls are more voulnerable in air, even if they also cause more havoc when attacking... It would be unlogical to have some nazzies do one thing whilst others can't, so they'll remain all 9 with same abilities, except WK off course. The best way to tackle them is arrows and eagles. I will remove the fortress eagles though, from all except Lorién faction, but all good factions will be able to summon eagles. I'd say that's fair, as it also takes a good amount of time before nazzies level up enough to use fells.

Hmm i'm not sure but i'm afraid it might be little late when you can upgrade fire arrow or somethings you probably lost half of you base already.

But that my guess though,How much level Nazgul can mount fellbeasts?

They require lvl 8 to get their fells, which means you WILL have Fire Arrows way before that, if you play strategically

Then i'm fine with everything ,I don't sure but Gwaihir should have difference ability than other eagles.

I like the idea of removing the fellbeast from Isengard faction, as suggested at the beginning of the thread.
A large flight of "crebain" (is that the english word ?) of Dunland would make more sense than a fellbeast.
A very large number of those creature could affect and hurt any other flying unit (anims could be a problem however).
We could imagine that even if not killing a flying creature quickly, such a flight would keep it busy (fighting)
for a long time ...

What about this:

Elfes: Gwahir + ability to summon 3 other eagles. (Stronger than fellbeasts)
Dwarfes: The dragon king. (Strongest flying unit, but only one dragon flying unit)
Men:

Isengard: Sarumans crows? (Like a army of crows, the fastest flying unit. Pefect to find gollum or spy on the enemy. Can only be taken down by other flying units, it's better than nothing. And fellbeasts are unrealistic for isengard.)
Mordor: All the nazguls can mount fellbeasts like it is now. They should be a lot weaker than the eagles.
Moria: I think they got a dragon right? Haven't played them yet.

Anyway to sum it up.

Elfes: 3 eagles + mighty Gwahir
Dwarfes: Smaug
Men: Not sure, eagles would be cheap.

Mordor: 9 fellbeasts, not very strong and are easily taken down by eagles.
Isengard: Crows, fastest units. Can only be taken down by other flying units.
Moria: The dragon king.

I'm not sure what flying units the dwarfes or Moria got. Because I haven't played them yet. So maybe we could have a mordor elf scenario to them. Dwarfes got smaug and 3 summon able dragons. While moria has got 9 ordinary weaker dragons or something.

So a unique flying unit for men, dwarfes and moria? And will this crow idea even work? I think if isengard should have a flying unit it would have to be crows.

Edited by Hermoor, 19 October 2009 - 01:28 PM.

Why would Dwarves have Smaug? They hated him! I think the Eagles for Dwarves is fine just do some tinkering.

Isengard: THe crows should be able to form a flying monster or something. Its like this you recruit the crows for 20 resources. They are extremely fast, scouting units but cant attack. For 2080 resources (or whatever to match the other costs of flying units) they transform (or form) into a dragon/beast/(Nazzie Inserts idea here). The beast is slow, can fly, and can attack. But it loses his speed and the purple fx that was used (for fear I think) has a larger radius. Maybe fire. Also the beast cant become crows again. To respawn you get the crows for 10 resources and then to transform fill the cost for the others. If you dont understand. Reply. Also a final note. Saruman didnt want the Nazgul but if Nazzie (the modder not the unit) wants it in. Then fine by me).
Everyone else is fine.

As I said I'm not sure what flying units the dwarfes and moria has. Smaug would be better with moria probably, but the dwarfes can't have eagles. The elfes has got eagles already. More uniwue units for each faction like isengard should have crows. Crows forming into different things? I think that would be hard to code. But a bunch of flapping crows can be just as dangerous as a nazgul. Think thousands of crows attacking a nazgul, they would peck him to death. The crows could have good stealth abilities, and be able to see far. The perfect spy unit, just like in the movie.

Elves: 3 eagles + mighty Gwahir
Dwarves: Smaug
Men: Not sure, eagles would be cheap.

Mordor: 9 fellbeasts, not very strong and are easily taken down by eagles.
Isengard: Crows, fastest units. Can only be taken down by other flying units.
Moria: The dragon king.

I'm not sure what flying units the dwarfes or Moria got. Because I haven't played them yet. So maybe we could have a mordor elf scenario to them. Dwarfes got smaug and 3 summon able dragons. While moria has got 9 ordinary weaker dragons or something.

So a unique flying unit for men, dwarfes and moria? And will this crow idea even work? I think if isengard should have a flying unit it would have to be crows.

Um, perhaps the list could look like this:

Gondor: 1 Eagle
Rohan: 1 Eagle
Lorien: Gwaihir
Erebor: 1 Eagle

Isengard: Crebain Swarm
Mordor: 9 Fellbeasts
Moria: Cave Bat Swarm
Rhun: 3 Dragons
Harad: Vulture Swarm

considering 4.7 along the way...

Flying unit for Erebor would be 'Ravens'. They played a role in the Hobbit as watchers so they would be good spies as well as provide a counterpart to Isengard's Crebain and Rhun/Harad's Vultures.

i honestly think flying units should be restricted to:

Gwaihir - Lorien (Eagle's Nest ) no more other eagle
Drogoth - Moria (Dragon's Nest) no more fire drakes, even for treasure trove, although there is a power that can summon two of them to the battlefield (see spellbook thread)
NO MORE fellbeasts for isengard
NO MORE eagles for gondor and erebor
I'm okay with there being the nazgul able to mount fellbeasts.

Yeah, that's a good idea.....And I don't like the idea for vultures for Harad.

Edited by Darkwing, 29 November 2009 - 11:22 PM.

lol you've quoted me on that, but i've already changed my mind. i think:

gondor: eagle, same as now, as a hero from fortress - eagles aided them at the black gate
rohan: same as gondor
lorien: eagle from fortress, plus gwaihir from eagle's nest
erebor: eagle from fortress - eagles aided them at battle of five armies
rhun: drogoth from dragon's nest
harad: no flying units, although they do have vultures as a fortress upgrade and spellbook power
isengard: no flying units, although they do have crebain as a fortress upgrade and spellbook power
moria: no flying units, although they do have cave bats as a fortress upgrade and spellbook power
mordor: witch-king has fellbeast mount at lvl1, other nazgul at lvl 7 or 8, forgot what it is. same as now.

in addition, erebor get raven spy power, lorien still have summon eagles power, rhun get dragon strike power, and moria have summon smaug power (better, reskinned dragon strike)

ravens, crebain, vultures, and bats would only be used for spying, without attacks. they should be able to get shot down as well, like the vanilla game.

Edited by khamulrulz, 30 November 2009 - 09:10 AM.

I must repeat my protest to the notion of moving Drogoth from Moria to Rhun. It is true that dragons have more apparent association with Rhun, the whole realm of Goblins, Wargs, Trolls, Giants and Dragons seems too irresistible a faction to significantly alter in some way, such as removing the Dragon part completely.

Edit: And any Dragons in Rhun should be land based ones..

Edited by Uruk King, 30 November 2009 - 07:45 PM.

Edit: And any Dragons in Rhun should be land based ones..

Agreed. They should be fire breathing, perhaps with powers similar to the planned spellbook powers such as Desert Storm/Sand Twister etc. Perhaps even a 'Bury in Sand' powere which coats all units in a target area in sand.

I'm pretty sure Dragons never worked with men. Dragons were a creation of Morgoth, an evil race. I get the impression they would only work with eachother and dark lords. Gandalf said Sauron would have allied with Smaug if possible (that's why the attacks on Dol Guldur and the Lonely mountain were at the same time, executed by Gandalf) and they worked with Morgoth and his Orcs in the first age. Other than that, I don't think they ever allied with anyone. But not men, it would be Orcs if they did.

Historically many civilizations used things like the easterling's helmets based on many animals they didn't actually work with, that would be treacherous to them. That's what I always pictures their thing with dragons to be. I don't think they would actually go to war with a dragon (the dragon would probably just kill them.)

Besides that, Nazgul has already described clearly how he disliked the fire drakes. I don't see how any fire breathing land dragon could really be any different.

The only reason I'd add a dragon to Rhun is so they could have a flying unit. A land Dragon doesn't fit that role.

I don't think every faction should have some sort of flying creature. Only Moria and Mordor should have the flying things for the Evil side and maybe Gwahir and an Eagle for Elves. There should be a way to counter any aerial threat. Meaning not just archers but something either a spell or some cost effective unit that can take out any aerial attackers.

Perhaps that's what the Crebain for Isengard could be a flock of birds that are good against singular units but not so much against groups of units making them best against those strong air units and weak against batallions.

Dwarves should only have eagles for a summon. Also the ravens shouldn't be doing any attacking. King Brand being a descendant of Bard I could have some special spell that does bonus damage to flying creatures.

Gondor has plenty of good archers with damage, range, and hp so they are covered with anti-air. Also they should get a summon and maybe one Eagle from the fortress. They are descendant of Numenor who had some eagles sent by Manwe. They didn't control them just flew around there.

Rohan should just have to rely on their archers. Also most of their heroes Eomer, Eowyn, Theodred and maybe some others will have a spear toss ability so that should whittle down their hp. They should also get a summon Eagle spell.

Rhun and Harad will also have to rely on their archer units. Maybe their heroes or spells could be about making it easier to take down those stronger single units since the good side has so many of those.

I pretty much agree with that.

I think all the good factions should have an eagle summon (maybe not Rohan if split, depending on if they need another spell.) and elves should have the eagles nest still.

The crebain and ravens were really only used as scouts, and I think they could remain that way. They never fought in any battles, afaik. They could be able to attack air units (having higher speed they could harass flyers) if the factions need this for balance. Since Dwarves and Isengard don't have a huge focus on archers, this might make sense (not sure about goblins.) In the movie, only a few crossbows were shown, and the main use of range by Isengard was killing Boromir in the books (when many archers shot at him, instead of just lurtz.) Crebain might be good to support crossbows to take down eagles. Dwarves, on the other hand, have the men of dale (which should maybe be the best anti-flyer archer, since they killed smaug) so that would be enough. But I think if crebain is anti air, then ravens and cave bats should definitely be also. Moria seems to have pretty weak archers, but I think they should keep drogoth at the dragon's nest, so that would help.

Elves have the eagle's nest and strong archers so it shouldn't be a problem for them. (IDK about in see, but silverthorn took out flyers pretty quick in the vanilla, doing magic damage.) Men have enough archers, probably, and there's not really anything else that makes sense for them. In the movies the fellbeasts really just flew around and none of the archers shot at them, but they didn't do a whole lot of damage themselves, either (I think the AoE of their crushing should be pretty low, only taking a few units. same with Drogoth and the Eagles.)

For Rhun and Harad I don't know for sure, but I guess archers should be enough. Just make sure to have some heroes with ranged special attacks, probably an archer hero for at least one of the factions. If needed, you could add some desert birds to Harad or something. They really fit in as well as the cave bats.