Unique faction buildings

at the moment (being planned for 4.8), gondor will have both the marketplace and the stoneworker, two unique buildings. will any other faction get unique buildings as such? here is my idea for special buildings per faction (buildings that serve a special purpose, other than production, defence, statues, and wells):

Gondor - marketplace: economy upgrades
Rohan - golden hall (made much cheaper, is not fortress): garrisonable, used for draft, grants hero healing bonus
Erebor - stoneworker (moved from gondor, using current mithril mine model): structure upgrades
Lothlorien - mirror of galadriel (in addition to healing): grants vision bonus, special ability used to see entire map
Rhun - temple of worship (in addition to being heroic statue): grants fear resistance to all troops (can use model of temple of twilight from rotwk)
Harad - water hole (in addition to being healing structure): produces slaves that collect water in buckets, not for resources, but for max health increase to all troops
Isengard - white hand statue (in addition to being heroic statue): causes enemy units around it to cower in fear
Mordor - sauron statue (in addition to being heroic statue): like mini "watcher", scares enemies away
Moria - drum (in addition to being heroic statue): used for call the horde for goblin faction

now, every faction has unique structures that have a separate function. rhun and harad were a bit tricky, but i thought that cults of worship fit rhun and water fit harad, and water is meant to boost people's health. the temple grants a fear resistance bonus because i thought that because the troops could be fanatical worshippers, they would lose all sense of fear.

all factions will have a secondary resource structure: hunter's lodges for gondor, rohan, rhun, lorien, and harad; lumber mills for isengard and mordor; and treasure hoards for erebor and moria.

for the dwarven stoneworker upgrades, i think that they should be "reinforced gates", "garrisonable axetowers" (so axe towers on walls can be garrisoned), and "mithril stonework" (requires dwarven stonework prereq, greatly improves armor of fortress and walls)

Edited by khamulrulz, 16 December 2009 - 11:26 AM.

From the other thread about buildings and resources structures in particular it seemed that people were swinging towards all factions having some sort of secondary resource structure and for some multiple. If not an actual building that generates resources then some structure that would enhance or give upgrades. Lumber mills for everyone seemed to be popular though Isengard would be the one to start out with them and get the most bonus from them.

Helghast in that other thread suggested that Moria's main resource collecting ability would be from scavenging. So I thought for them they would get a early building that kind of collects all the scavenge parts. By building it gives the scavenge ability to all units and building across the map. Furthermore it could probably have upgrades to increase the amount of money generated from this or even add some sort of cost reduction to units something like that. I thought that the drum thing for Moria would become their heroic statue. Then some unit would stand there and drum it when necessary. Perhaps in addition to an aura it will give an ability to increase unit production to nearby buildings or attack/move speed bonus.

For Elves there really isn't a good idea for an extra resource structure so it would stick to elven farms. However, keeping in the mallorn trees seemed to be an idea people liked. That would give some sort of stealth ability and maybe some other ability. Also I personally thought of having a flet. Basically a tree with a platform from which elves shoot either it would require garrison to fire or have both garrison and normal firing. The thing is it would have a skin similar to regular trees and be naturally stealthed when next to a forest seeming only like any other tree. One would need a detector unit to get at it.

Gondor would be having blacksmith as a resource structure as well. The marketplace I thought would either modify resource structures or its resource output would fluctuate depending on how many farms/blacksmiths you have. The latter I think might be impossible. However, if the resource % increase per marketplace might be possible if each market gave a invisible upgrade to resource output. There would of course be a cap of 3-5; I think it makes sense the more markets the more people they can each cater too. The Stoneworker would also be there and offer building upgrades which I think should be similar to unit upgrades.

Rohan, Harad, and Rhun all seemed like trade orientated cultures. So I thought as a secondary resource for them a trade outpost structure and some units will go between them generating resources which would increase depending on the distance between the two. Things similar to AoE series was also popular and I loved the trade caravans. But for all 3 to have something similar seemed to dull the uniqueness even though it may have been the way things are.

The thing is the building should either play to the strengths or minimize a weakness of a faction I think. It can't be there just to look unique so each factions has something nice. It should serve an important function in the way they play. I might come up with something later I really am boggled about what the other factions should have. There is really not much about them.

I came up with some new ideas however they hinge on some coding that I'm not too sure about.

For Moria more about that scavenged resource collecting buildings. It would have 3 levels like normal buildings each level would have to be purchased since it doesn't generate resources itself. At level 2 it would have an aura that adds to the scavenge ability that increases the yield per kill. At level 3 it would have either 1 or 2 abilities. The mandatory one would be either an aura or an ability that significantly decreases the cost of either all or a certain kinds of units. The only reason I would have it be an ability is that when it activates it constantly drains resources like resource buildings but instead of positive its negative. It wouldn't be that expensive but you wouldn't want it activated in a resource crunch. This ability would make ,if combined with added slaughterhouses to Moria(with the cumulative troop discount thing like BFME), some units either really cheap or even free. The second ability I'm not really sure of since Moria will already have the drum with call the horde ability, but I thought similar to above it would have a troop production speed increase for a cost. However, there would be no aura version for this and if an ability that drains resources is uncodable then this ability is definitely out. Just from what I saw at Moria I just think this faction should be able to make fodder easily and in mass. I believe this building will really help with that and make a unique and important resource function.

For the Elves similar to Moria they will have a building that gives auras but this one mostly to units. It would unlike the Moria structure still create units. It would be a building of healing. It would also have 3 levels that can be achieved by making units or the purchasable upgrade. At level 2 it will get 2 healing abilities. First it will get healing aura the size of the entire base which would be as strong as or a little stronger than a fountain this one can be scrapped if necessary. The second one would also be a healing aura however this would be map wide for all elven units but quite weak. Its always described how elves have a really strong vitality and things of that nature. At level 3 it would give a universal aura that makes all units more resistant to all spells. They would do either less damage or the duration of certain abilities would be less. This goes back to that increased vitality the elves are said to have. I will bring up the units in the Elven section.

Since these buildings give really strong abilities only one these buildings can exist at a time.

Edited by isledebananas, 15 December 2009 - 07:46 AM.

I've got two suggestions:

- The first: The mirror of Galadriel can be used to see the entire map? That could be overpowered when a player builds a number of them. The player would be able to view the entire map for minutes, meaning he can intercept any incoming attack. Limitations could be implemented, such as an extended field of vision instead of the entire map, or the entire map for mere seconds after which a reload time kicks in.

- The Second. Rhûnnic forces do not worship dragons True, not much is known about them, but they would worships snakes faster than dragons, since that is their given theme.

taralom, snakes are with harad. and nazgul thought that dragons would fit with rhun, so for this game, rhun has a dragon theme. for the mirror of galadriel, i suppose that they would only reveal the shroud around them, with the reveal map power being a special ability (all mirrors would have the same timer, so you can only do it once every couple minutes or so)

btw, i have just thought a very long time, and read the secondary resource thread, and nazgul's view on it, so i'll change my mind again and give every faction a secondary resource buildings. gondor, rohan, rhun, harad, and lorien would all get a hunter's lodge (reskinned for each, of course), mordor and isengard would have lumber mills, and erebor and moria would have guys going out to nearby mountains for gems (from stoneworker and treasure trove, respectively)

Edited by khamulrulz, 15 December 2009 - 09:07 AM.

... Rhûnnic forces do not worship dragons True, not much is known about them, but they would worships snakes faster than dragons, since that is their given theme.

They did worship Morgoth (Melkor), and Sauron, cf.

... the 'Easterlings' were mostly Men of cruel and evil kind, descendants of those who had served and worshipped Sauron before his overthrow at the end of the Second Age.

and this, on the the possible role of the Ithryn Luin, the Blue Wizards:

... their task was to circumvent Sauron: to bring help to the few tribes of Men that had rebelled from Melkor-worship, to stir up rebellion ... and to cause [?dissension and disarray] among the dark East ... They must have had very great influence on the history of the ... Third Age in weakening and disarraying the forces of East ... who would otherwise have ... outnumbered the West.

... and, just for the record, this last guess from Tolkien is NOT contradicting his assumption concerning their fate:

Of the [two] Blue little was known in the West, ... for they passed into the East with Curunir [aka. Saruman], but they never returned, and whether they remained in the East, pursuing there the purposes for which they were sent; or perished; or as some hold were ensnared by Sauron and became his servants, is not now known. But I fear that they failed, as Saruman did, though in different ways; and I suspect they were founders or beginners of secret cults and 'magic' traditions that outlasted the fall of Sauron.

yeah i think third age total war has a similar view to nazgul that while the blue wizards had some original success, they encouraged dragon cults (of course, taking some liberty with the lore)

... while the blue wizards had some original success, they encouraged dragon cults (of course, taking some liberty with the lore)

Yeah, you do that a lot ... taking some liberty with the lore

There are no evidence of either "dragon cults" for the Easterlings or "snake cults" for the Haradrim. "Worship of Morgoth" will, apart from being in accordance with the lore, give some unique possibilities for a variety of things, including the new Ring-hero system ...

I don't really see how Rhun could have dragon cults without a dragon. They may have modeled their armor like scales in order to copy local serpents or stories of dragons they heard of. However, they can't really be doing any worship of dragons especially seeing as how the last one was killed it would be kind of end the cult.

It seems that Sauron may have been hoping to create some magic wielders similar though lesser in power that the Nazgul especially the Witch King possessed. The second strongest Nazgul was himself from Rhun before being corrupted. Seeing as how orcs and trolls don't possess enough intellect for such things he may have been hoping for some kind of advantage.

I do like the idea of some buildings having some magic abilities. However, I'm not so sure about actual "magicians" maybe leave the abilities to the heroes.

I'm assuming that Rhun was more into the magic and Evil Ainur worship more so than Harad?

Since this is about buildings though. How about some sort of shrine where Rhunic peasants worship to Sauron I guess. I know from that other thread that AoE series stuff is much loved. From AoM there were temples where villagers could worship to gain upgrades and special units. I remember reading that Sauron would aid Rhunic tribes that were loyal to him to have domination over enemy tribes. Basically the building would have various abilities from global unit/building buff abilities to things similar to spell book powers. These abilities are initially inaccessible but by having peasants worship at the shrine you are able to unlock these abilities. However, once they are used to use them again one would need continued worship.

I don't really know how that would be coded though maybe the starting out as used and requiring worship to get the cool-down timer to tick. Depending on how many peasants you have the cd timer moves faster. Or perhaps the building could be like a resource gathering building and the peasants generate resources by worshiping that level the building and each leveling allows reuse of one of those abilities. I don't know if there is a cap on how many levels a building will have though.

I'm assuming that Rhun was more into the magic and Evil Ainur worship more so than Harad?

Not so, they just did it in different ways, see below ...

... Sauron may have been hoping to create some magic wielders similar though lesser in power than the Nazgul ...

He did, they are called "Black Nùmenoreans" - they did make realms in the South, outside the part of Harad that in the Third Age were dominated by Gondor. These Realms, or what remained of them in TA, may be epitomized by Khand - (to be explained in a separate topic soon, please have patience)

on topic: this will of course have some influence on buildings, one way or the other.

... Sauron may have been hoping to create some magic wielders similar though lesser in power than the Nazgul ...

He did, they are called "Black Nùmenoreans" - they did make realms in the South, outside the part of Harad that in the Third Age were dominated by Gondor. These Realms, or what remained of them in TA, may be epitomized by Khand - (to be explained in a separate topic soon, please have patience)

on topic: this will of course have some influence on buildings, one way or the other.

Yes I was aware of the Black Numenoreans. However, there numbers were few and they unlike the peoples of Rhun and Harad could not be so readily replenished. I just assumed he would want a steadier stream that he may not have to be so reserved in using upon the battlefield.

I still would put Rhun more with the Mordor worship. Rhun doesn't cover as vast a land as the peoples of Harad and they aren't as widespread. Meaning I would think they are while not always on good relations far closer to each other and more organized(for some kind of unified religious system). Secondly they are a bit closer to Mordor geographically. It also seemed like Sauron looked a bit more to Rhun for skilled warriors more so than Harad and since the close proximity they could easily be summoned to protect Mordor. Lastly, again is that thing with Khamul being from within their ranks must have created a closer tie between the two. I just take this to translate into some difference between the two factions.

we should make a new thread for the rhun dragon debate, because i am sure that there is plenty of argument for either side. i am quite sure there were dragons in eastern middle-earth (at least, 4 dwarven rings were destroyed by dragon fire, and there are only 3 dwarven houses in western middle-earth, with the other four in the orocarni). also, i was reading the book of lost tales i think (or another tolkien text discussing the quest of erebor), and it mentioned dragons (plural) in the withered heath, of which smaug was one.

the dragon theme as proposed by nazgul would give rhun drogoth and several dragon powers, which add an interesting (albeit not necessarily lore-correct) factor to the rhun faction which would be fun to play.

to ease up the dragon debate, i will call the temple thingy "temple of worship", because tolkien stated that they had cults. that is not taking any liberties with the lore (because as namo stated, that is to be avoided). therefore, it is not implied what they are worshipping.

i hope this thread returns to the topic of these buildings discussed in the first post

Edited by khamulrulz, 16 December 2009 - 11:32 AM.

we should make a new thread for the rhun dragon debate, because i am sure that there is plenty of argument for either side. i am quite sure there were dragons in eastern middle-earth (at least, 4 dwarven rings were destroyed by dragon fire, and there are only 3 dwarven houses in western middle-earth, with the other four in the orocarni).

Tolkien did not state the awawening place of the other four Tribes you place in the Orocarni. However, I agree with you about the existence of dragons in the East because the dragons who stormed the Dwarf Holds in the Grey Mountains came quite probably from there.

(isledebananas @ Dec 15 2009, 02:13 PM) *
... Sauron may have been hoping to create some magic wielders similar though lesser in power than the Nazgul ...

He did, they are called "Black Nùmenoreans" - they did make realms in the South, outside the part of Harad that in the Third Age were dominated by Gondor. These Realms, or what remained of them in TA, may be epitomized by Khand - (to be explained in a separate topic soon, please have patience)

There were no Black Númenóreans left in late Third Age (at least in Umbar), they all have mixed so much with lesser Men over the years that they were not a separate people any more. It's stated in Peoples of Middle-earth. So, Umbar remained but the Black Númenóreans did not.

However, I agree with you about the existence of dragons in the East because the dragons who stormed the Dwarf Holds in the Grey Mountains came quite probably from there.

I got the impression they came from higher up in the mountains. I pictured further north and west.

There were no Black Númenóreans left in late Third Age (at least in Umbar), they all have mixed so much with lesser Men over the years that they were not a separate people any more. It's stated in Peoples of Middle-earth. So, Umbar remained but the Black Númenóreans did not.

I don't think that can really be known. I don't know if it says anywhere whether or not any survived, though it seems they aren't of great number. I got the impression the Mouth of Sauron was one, but he seemed to live for a long time (some 1300 years, or something,) so he could be the last one.

I think Isengard should get a experiment lab(I really have no idea of a cool name to call it). Basically a building that possesses abilities that it can cast on target units. I don't know if this is possible but it would have abilities that require sacrificing uruks to move the ability timer. The Uruks would be given over to be experimented on to make stronger Uruks. Once enough are sacrificed an ability will be available to use on a unit/horde note not on heroes. It will give various permanent effects to that unit/horde. Increased speed, damage, armor, life steal attack, things like that. Each ability can be cast more than once on the same horde(there will be a cap though maybe 5) in a way "improving" on the horde. Fully upgraded Uruks would be really really strong as they were intended to be but these would be very few since it takes considerable resources and time to get all "upgrades" maxed out. Each kind of Uruk will effect the timer of a different ability.

For Gondor they should have a special fiefdoms tent/barracks or pigeon roost. Basically from this Gondor can use various unit/horde summons onto the battle field from various lands in the Southern Fiefdoms and Dunedain. They would have ability timers like regular summons but it would also cost money to summon them as well. It levels like a regular barracks though and similarly allows more powerful summons at higher levels. As expected more powerful summons have longer timers and cost. I think this reflects their ability to call for aid, but to make these units useful regular Gondor units will have their cost and production speed decreased. I think that also reflects Gondor's state of disrepair during the WotR.

For Mordor they would have a Morgul Tower(not the THE Morgul Tower) basically a mini version with dark energy thing. It would give abilities that if its placed quite centrally should cover a radius that is a little bigger than the AI base. I got this idea from the descriptions of how Mordor(mostly from Boromir). Basically this would give powers like life drain for enemies, a base-wide Darkness, base-wide armor decrease for enemies. It would be in around the base basically a mini-Mordor which was described to be a harsh-inhospitable place for the Forces of Good.

Edited by isledebananas, 28 December 2009 - 03:44 PM.