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#1 feld

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Posted 12 December 2009 - 02:59 PM

...I found this poking around wookie on another project:

Rebel One

I've heard intermittently that some folks (Rebel sympathizers surely) have said that they need large ships to "balance" the might of the Empire (as if that were possible!).

Thought Rebel One (now canon) might provide a useful Star-Destroyer scale early Rebel ship in some campaign sometime. Surely there's a Providence model out there somewhere...

v/r
feld

#2 Phoenix Rising

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Posted 12 December 2009 - 09:26 PM

I wouldn't object to it. Just depends on our unit priorities, I guess. I'm not convinced that the tech trees are wildly unbalanced, but if someone can make that argument, be my guest.

#3 anakinskysolo

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Posted 12 December 2009 - 09:50 PM

Its just that the Alliance doesn't have anything on the scale of the Executor and Eclipse classes. However, the Rebel One would be too small to be considered a threat to these huge vessels.

#4 feld

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Posted 12 December 2009 - 10:17 PM

Its just that the Alliance doesn't have anything on the scale of the Executor and Eclipse classes. However, the Rebel One would be too small to be considered a threat to these huge vessels.


Ack. I had the Providence confused (somehow) with KDY's Procurator. My bad.

#5 Kaleb Graff

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Posted 16 December 2009 - 03:31 AM

Why do we never get to see the really cool ships. They're there, but always in the wrong place. The only time we saw them in action was in The Unifying Force. It's all star destroyers otherwise.

#6 feld

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Posted 16 December 2009 - 03:30 PM

Why do we never get to see the really cool ships. They're there, but always in the wrong place. The only time we saw them in action was in The Unifying Force. It's all star destroyers otherwise.

Yeah...I often lament that. Your question is one I've thought about a lot as a capital ship junkie. My answer is a combination of lack of threat and sample bias.

Lack of threat: I know it's called "Star Wars" but it should really be called "Star Insurgency". The Rebels don't really represent a big naval threat to the Empire in much of the timeline covered by the canon. Certain not during the Dark Times. During the Rebellion period, the biggest thing that they had were pretty much star-destroyer scale ships (like the MC80). The Empire therefore really didn't need their star-cruisers, star-battlecruisers, or star-dreadnoughts much to deal with the "insignificant rebellion". So the Navy deployed most of the heavy fleet elements elsewhere during the period covered by Episodes IV-VI and associated canon. Read, they're in the Core - there's even hints in Outbound Flight that Palpatine forsaw the Vong (probably thought that they would be an interesting conquest). Once we get into the Galactic Civil War period (after Endor), it appears that the vast majority of the heavier Imperial fleet units were lost "off camera" in the time between Grand Admiral Thrawn's attacks and Operation Shadow Hand during fighting between Imperial factions. So we basically missed them entirely.

Sample bias: As a consequence of their location, we also miss them because, during the Rebellion, most Star Wars products don't go places where the big ships are. And, even if they do, they mostly follow small groups of heroic characters who change the Galaxy as we know it through bravery, luck, and cunning. The closest to a "navy" story that the Star Wars universe tends to come are stories or games where starfighter jocks are the main characters. Hence the Great Nerfing of capital ships seen in much of the setting: you need the caps to make it Star Wars...but they have to be defeatable by small teams of players or the whole thing is too depressing for the reader. I long ago realized that the vast majority of sci-fi/fantasy readers couldn't care less about the naval aspects of a given setting.

There is one great place to see what a Core World might have looked like at the height of the Empire:Byss during the Dark Empire comics

About 9/10 of the ships in the Imperial Navy bigger than a star-destroyer come from a few panels of that comic. And they look pretty mean too...

v/r
feld

#7 Kaleb Graff

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Posted 16 December 2009 - 04:23 PM

I know. Honestly, it's sad, but no one pays attention to the Navys, except Kube-McDowell. Most of the time, the fleet is a bunch of ships lead by Ackbar or Wedge. Also, the fleets are too small, but that's another thing.
On the subject of SSDs:
I actually think there is an 8-km long Super Star Destroyer. It plugs a gap in the fleet, and there are too many of those that are 5x star destroyer power to be all in error. For example, the one in Invincible. That was probably poor research, but the Exectors are too expensive to be everywhere they are said to be. The Imps probably tried to spread confusion on the issue hoping people would confuse a Super with an Executor. Just my opion, but you can't expect the NR fleet to take on a full-fleged Executor in BFC.

#8 Ghostrider

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Posted 16 December 2009 - 04:27 PM

Ok - I'm really interested in that era as i have to revise Operation Shadow Hand at some point.

A list of new ships would be of interest.

Please refer to my old posts on Thrawn Campaign and go from there....

#9 Ghostrider

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Posted 16 December 2009 - 06:00 PM

I actually think there is an 8-km long Super Star Destroyer. It plugs a gap in the fleet, and there are too many of those that are 5x star destroyer power to be all in error. For example, the one in Invincible. That was probably poor research, but the Exectors are too expensive to be everywhere they are said to be. The Imps probably tried to spread confusion on the issue hoping people would confuse a Super with an Executor. Just my opion, but you can't expect the NR fleet to take on a full-fleged Executor in BFC.



We had the SSD discussion a while back. To recap: SSD is a misonmer for anything bigger than an ISD-I. Basically both 8mk and 17mk sised star destroyers are Canon, the 17km version being the Executor-class, and the 8km version is the Super-class.
If I remember correctly the whole thing is a mess. The Super Star Destroyer term first appeared with a comic image of the 8km version (I think), and later the same name was applied to the 17km version that appeared in ESB. Later the 17km version was retconned into the Executor-class and the name Super Star Destroyer was retconned to the 8km class, but the term SSD somehow still applied to both!

A long time ago PR considered putting the Super-class into the mod, but dropped it in favour of other more profitable additions simply due to the horrific amount of time required to put the firing bones on the model and do the billions of hardpoints, and all for a single ship that might see use in a single campaign - Operation Shadow Hand.

There are simply better things to do with our time, like Skyhook, potential land developments and a few other projects that you will be hearing about shortly.

Hope this clarifies the issue.

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#10 P.O._210877

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Posted 16 December 2009 - 06:57 PM

Actually, the Executor was 19 km long, not 17 km.

Edited by P.O._210877, 16 December 2009 - 06:57 PM.

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#11 Phoenix Rising

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Posted 16 December 2009 - 08:46 PM

You're right about the Rebellion, feld, but I think you're overlooking the more important faction during the Dark Times: the CIS Remnant. The whole military buildup and ongoing loss of rights under the Empire was justified with the CIS. RotS was much like RotJ - a decisive win, but not an end to the war. Well, technically it was the end of the Clone Wars, but all that war materiel doesn't just go away because you kill the Separatist leaders and deactivate the battle droids. The Navy - the Empire - needed an external threat to fight against as a sleight of hand for the New Order. And in terms of a straight fight against former CIS starships (most of which have lots of small guns and can't stand much punishment), dreadnaughts would be very useful. Once the Empire has to deal with an insurgency, they're not so useful... save for the off chance one happens to stumble on a hidden base. By the time the New Republic has anything worth defending, a lot of the old dreadnaughts are in the hands of warlords fighting against each other, with one exception: when they were united under the Dark Empire.

That said, I don't think you necessarily have to go big to be cool: there are plenty of very good ships of all sizes that routinely get ignored for something more... iconic. The A-wing is a good example of one from the movies even, but most are still worse off than that.

#12 feld

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Posted 16 December 2009 - 09:31 PM

You're right about the Rebellion, feld, but I think you're overlooking the more important faction during the Dark Times: the CIS Remnant. The whole military buildup and ongoing loss of rights under the Empire was justified with the CIS. RotS was much like RotJ - a decisive win, but not an end to the war. Well, technically it was the end of the Clone Wars, but all that war materiel doesn't just go away because you kill the Separatist leaders and deactivate the battle droids. The Navy - the Empire - needed an external threat to fight against as a sleight of hand for the New Order. And in terms of a straight fight against former CIS starships (most of which have lots of small guns and can't stand much punishment), dreadnaughts would be very useful. Once the Empire has to deal with an insurgency, they're not so useful... save for the off chance one happens to stumble on a hidden base. By the time the New Republic has anything worth defending, a lot of the old dreadnaughts are in the hands of warlords fighting against each other, with one exception: when they were united under the Dark Empire.

Never even heard of the CIS remnant! That's great! Yes...I've been living under a media rock for about five years...

I love these conversations because I always learn something new about the story continuity. I just checked out the wikipedia article on the CIS remnant. Not only does it make sense for there to be a huge "holdout force" but the logic of using that continuing threat to fuel the Imperial military build up is solid. It's almost like someone....PLANNED IT!!! <cue ominous music>

Hats off to the story folks at Lucasarts since it seems like most of this material came out of Battlefront 2...

v/r
feld

#13 BansheeMalthus

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Posted 16 December 2009 - 10:06 PM

Iconic, that's the key. When you think of starfighters, its x-wings and TIEs. Frigates its the Nebulon B. Caps, ImpStars and MC80s. "Supers" its just the Executor. While we know, thanks to the EU, that there are many more ships of all shapes and sizes, The amount, especially under the Imps(my fav faction), is just too many. Man I would love to have all the capitol ships, battlecrusiers, and dreadnaughts for the empire, but really after the eclipse and executor its just different packaging and a little redundant. Unless its something so new and offkilter as to add a twist, I like whats there atm. Now if someone were to make a "Super" class or higher devoted to being a carrier, with minimal armament, That would be cool. Or make the torpedo spheres. I actually had, at one time, drew up some scketches of some new Imp cap designs. My personal fave was a 4prong carrier based on an Impstar shell. It completly got rid of the front half of the ship and replaced it with a port and starboard tine(think tuning fork)and another set rotated 90 degrees. Each tine was basically very large hangers. By my calculations it added space for 2 full wings(188 in each wing). You lost a lot of firepower, had some added Point defense, since it was especially vulnerable to fighter strafing runs, but added enough fighters to be able to cancel out some of the rebellions superiority in fightercraft. It wasnt a good ground assault ship, since it had NO ground units at all, and just a standard marine attachment for repeling boarders. If I can find the stats I will post them, we actually worked it up for the old RPG game to test it.

#14 Phoenix Rising

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Posted 16 December 2009 - 10:25 PM

Well, I don't know if I'd give Battlefront II that much credit... BF2 is a typical post-RotS game that uses locations from the film without any really good in-universe explanation as to why (I'm sure you're familiar with another game like that). It was probably heavily retconned to make any sense at all; you'd be appalled at what they did with vehicles, for example, so I doubt it's that coherent. Ideally, this retconning is all by GL's instructions (obviously he's imposed restrictions on this time period, since nothing is set in it) and the live-action TV series picks up on the Imperial-CIS Remnant conflict. One can hope, at least.

Edited by Phoenix Rising, 16 December 2009 - 10:27 PM.


#15 BansheeMalthus

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Posted 16 December 2009 - 10:52 PM

Found it.

Imperial-Class Star Carrier
Craft: Kuat Drive Yards Imperial I Star Carrier
Type: Carrier
Scale: Capital
Length: 1600 meters
Skill: Capital Ship Piloting: Star Destroyer
Crew: Skeleton: 4000 with command 7D; Total crew: 31,675
Passengers: 1,500 (Marines to repel boarders)
Cargo Capacity: 20,000 metric tons; 5,000 cubic meters
Consumables: 2 years
Cost: Not available for sale
Hyperdrive Multuplier: x1
Hyperdrive Backup: x10
Nav Computer: Yes
Maneuverability: 1D
Space: 5
Hull: 6D
Shields: 4D
Sensors:
Passive: 50/1D
Scan: 100/3D
Search: 200/4D
Focus: 6/4D+2
Weapons:
10 Turbolaser Batteries 10 Ion Cannon Batteries
Fire Arc: 20 front, 20 left, 20 right Fire Arc: 20 B, 15 L, 15 R, 10 B
Crew: 1 or 2 Crew: 1 or 2
Skill: Capital Ship Gunnery Skill: Capital Ship Gunnery
Fire Control: 4D Fire Control: 2D+2
Space Range: 3-15/36/75 Space Range: 1-10/25/50
Atmosphere Range: 6-15/72/150km Atmosphere R: 2-20/50/100
Damage: 5D Damage: 3D
20 Tractor Beam Projectors
Fire Arc: 6 front, 2 left, 2 right
Crew: 1 to 10
Skill: Capital Ship Gunnery
Fire Control: 4D
Space Range: 1-5/15/30
Atmosphere Range: 2-10/30/60km
Damage: 6D
160 Quad Laser Cannons
Fire Arc: 110(10 at the joining of tines, 25 at each tine) front, 15 left,15 right, 20 back
Crew: 1 to 3
Scale: Starfighter
Skill: Starship gunnery
Fire Control: 4D
Space Range: 1-3/12/25
Atmosphere Range: 100-300/1.2/2.5km
Damage: 4D

Complement:
72 TIE/ln
Craft: Sienat Fleet Systems TIE/ln
Type: Space Superiority Starfighter
Scale: Starfighter
Length: 6.3 meters
Skill: Starfighter piloting: TIE
Crew: 1
Cargo Capacity: 65 kilograms; .25 cubic meters
Consumables: 2 days
Cost: 60,000 new; 25,000 used
Maneuverability: 2D
Space: 10
Atmosphere: 415;1200kmh
Hull: 2D
Sensors:
Passive: 20/0D
Scan: 40/1D
Search: 60/2D
Focus: 3/3D
Weapons:
Two Laser Cannons (fire linked)
Fire Arc: Front
Skill: Starship Gunnery
Fire Control: 2D
Space Range: 1-3/12/25
Atmosphere Range: 100-300/1.2km/2.5km
Damage: 5D

72 TIE Interceptor
Craft: Sienar Fleet Systems TIE Interceptor
Type: Space Superiority Starfighter
Scale: Starfighter
Length: 9.6 meters
Skill: Starfighter Piloting: TIE
Crew: 1
Cargo Capacity: 75kg; .3 cubic meters
Consumables: 2 days
Cost: 120,000 new; 75,000 used
Maneuverability: 3D+2
Space: 11
Atmosphere: 435;1250kmh
Hull: 3D
Sensors:
Passive: 25/1D
Scan: 40/2D
Search: 60/3D
Focus: 4/3D+2
Weapons:
Four Laser Cannons (fire linked)
Fire Arc: Front
Skill: Starship Gunnery
Fire Control: 3D
Space Range: 1-3/12/25
Atmosphere Range: 100-300/1.25km/2.5km
Damage: 6D

120 TIE Bomber
Craft: Sienar Fleet Systems TIE Bomber
Type: Dedicated light space bomber
Scale: Starfighter
Length: 7.8 meters
Skill: Starfighter piloting: TIE
Crew: 1
Cargo Capacity: 15 metric tons (bomb bay)
Consumables: 2 days
Cost: 150,000 new, 75,000 used
Space: 6
Atmosphere: 295; 850 kmh
Hull: 4D+1
Sensors:
Passive: 20/0D
Scan: 35/3D
Search: 50/2D
Focus: 3/2D+2
Weapons:
2 Laser Cannons Concussion Missiles (16 carried)
Fire Arc: Front Fire Arc: Front
Skill: Starship Gunnery Skill: Missile Weapons: Concussion M.
Fire Control: 2D Fire Control: 3D+2
Space Range: 1-3/12/25 Space Range: 1/3/7
Atmosphere Range:100-300/1.2/2.5km Atmosphere Range: 50-500/1/5km
Damage: 3D Damage: 9D

112 unassigned Avaliable StarFighter berths, mission contingent.

#16 BansheeMalthus

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Posted 16 December 2009 - 10:53 PM

God thats old, but it was fun. Anyway enjoy it.

#17 Kaleb Graff

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Posted 16 December 2009 - 11:51 PM

That makes a lot more sense then the venator at least. It's interesting, but I have a whole list of ships I'd like to see, and they're all canon.

#18 BansheeMalthus

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Posted 17 December 2009 - 12:17 AM

Oh true, I would like to see the canon ships too. That was just an experiment really. The fact that so many authors and contributers added sooo many ships to the canon lists over the years makes it a little crazy IMHO.

#19 Kaleb Graff

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Posted 17 December 2009 - 01:03 AM

Real navies do that too. Though for different reasons. Trying to keep up is also crazy, and there have been times with a dozen different classes of the same type in service.

#20 BansheeMalthus

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Posted 17 December 2009 - 01:33 AM

Real navies do that too. Though for different reasons. Trying to keep up is also crazy, and there have been times with a dozen different classes of the same type in service.

God yes, just look at the US Navy BB's. Hmmm, here's an idea, you know the sheild leech ability available to the Cons.? How about a ship, postRotJ developed by the empire that RECHARGES sheilds, so Impstars can fight MonCals more effectivly?



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