July 12th Update: Gondor Spellbook
#21
Posted 15 July 2011 - 01:09 AM
#22
Posted 15 July 2011 - 01:28 AM
#23
Posted 15 July 2011 - 03:49 AM
Totally agree. I don't see why everyone is complaining about the knights, when they're beautifully done, and are a unique and elegant alternative to the all-too-common, "stick wings on the side of a Gondor helmet" approach that WETA and every other mod seems to go for .Personally, I think that they look great for a single supportive unit that won't be used for the majority of the game and has already been modeled, textured and coded into the mod files.
Besides which, it's not unreasonable to assume that the knights of Dol Amroth would have their own distinct style of armor, different to that of other common Gondor soldiers. They're fiefdom units - i don't think a little individuality and variety between the different Gondorian troops is a bad thing. You'll get used to them.
A fair point, though you don't have to purchase random troops if you don't want to, the beacon still gives you a leadership bonus just for being there. Also, you probably won't be relying on the beacon units for much of your army, due to their random selection, and their inability to be upgraded (other than with banners). If anything, you'd probably want to use them more for raiding or quick defenses - in which case, it doesn't matter so much that they are random .This is so amazing, your mod is the best one for bfme1, for sure. But I don't like the idea of a random unit you get from a beacon. Random powers in RTS-games seem unatrractive to me.
#24
Posted 15 July 2011 - 05:26 AM
#26
Posted 15 July 2011 - 02:21 PM
#28
Posted 15 July 2011 - 04:02 PM
Although I do think that the KoDA look slightly medieval for Gondor, I think that it does make some sense for them to be so. They live a long way away from Minas Tirith, and half the coast of Gondor is far enough away to have a different style of armor.
Edited by {IRS}Athos, 15 July 2011 - 04:02 PM.
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#29
Posted 15 July 2011 - 04:14 PM
Also, one of the unique things about Tolkien as a writer is that that cultures that he created had so much depth (he even created entire histories for them)that they seem to progress like cultures do in the real world. That being said, if you look at the progression of armor you will find that to have a completely different style of armor like these knights have you would have to have very little connection between the two styles.It took the space of all of Europe to separate drastic changes in armor design during the middle ages. Gondor is not that big at the time of the war of the ring. Sorry if I am writing a lot, it is just that that knights of Dol Amroth are my personal favorites, and I would like to see justice done to Tolkien's description of them.
Edited by Swan_Knight93, 15 July 2011 - 04:26 PM.
#31
Posted 15 July 2011 - 05:10 PM
#32
Posted 15 July 2011 - 07:33 PM
#33
Posted 15 July 2011 - 07:57 PM
#34
Posted 15 July 2011 - 08:08 PM
The single quote describing the Knights says they were "tall as lords", nothing to do with helms. Other important keys: "knights in full harness", "ship AND the silver swan". Later, "the Prince of Dol Amroth in his shining mail", and a mention of Imrahil noticing condensation from breath on his shining bracers. The only conclusion you can draw from this is that they wore chainmail with metal vambraces and had a blue banner. Honestly, you could do almost anything at this point and call it "correct to Tolkien's description". A smurf with vambraces would work.If you read the book you will find that the knights of Dol Amroth are described as having tall helms. These are not tall.
No, it says that they have a "hauberk of steel rings", with a surcoat overtop (from the description of Pippin's garb, which is stated to be the livery of the elite Tower Guard). It's pretty conclusive. Nobody in the Tolkien fiction wears full (or even semi) plate either... and with the number of times he mentions "mail" you'd think he would have said something about plate. If you want more evidence, UT tells us that Rohan gets their armour from Gondor in exchange for horses. Detailed descriptions of the mail and cloth used by Rohan are present in the books - conclusively, they get this from Gondor. That being said, I respect Weta's interpretation, it works just as well and I happen to like it quite a lot. We use something closer to the book description for Gondor's Light Armor textures.Where in the book dose it say that the men of Minas Tirith do not were plate armor. I have read the book many times and never remember it saying anything about the men of Minas Tirith lacking plate armor. It says that the Guards of the Citadel were black tunics with the silver tree, but they are not doing battle when they are described.
When upgraded with banners, the bearer carries a swan banner, I believe. That insignia is also present on Imrahil's shield and design. See above quote for why you can have both.On top of that the coat-of-arms of Dol Amroth is a ship with a swan prow, not just a swan.
Do you know what culture Gondor descends from? Numenor. The closest thing we have to Numenorean troops in the movies are the troops in the Prologue battle who, as you'll see, wear mail and surcoats. If I want to design something that is closer to Numenor than Gondor (as the fief of Dol Amroth is repeatedly described) I should stylistically go closer to Numenor, right? Think about that a bit. I can throw in more of my logic in here as well - there's a case to be made for Gondor's plate based on events that happened earlier in the Third Age and a solid case to made that it wouldn't affect a far-removed princedom. I can provide this if you like.Also, one of the unique things about Tolkien as a writer is that that cultures that he created had so much depth (he even created entire histories for them)that they seem to progress like cultures do in the real world. That being said, if you look at the progression of armor you will find that to have a completely different style of armor like these knights have you would have to have very little connection between the two styles.
The larger separator of armor design is not space, but class and income. The same knights that wore Gothic plate lived mere meters from the unwashed peasants that wore boiled leather into battle. You can't argue that there's not enough space for difference, because there clearly is. Tolkien doesn't delineate along geographic boundaries, the borders are cultural.It took the space of all of Europe to separate drastic changes in armor design during the middle ages
You don't have an argument to stand on to tell me that I'm wrong. It boils down to "they're not like I imagined". That is too bad - unfortunately I can't please everyone. If you don't like them, don't use the summon .
But really, even if it were 'wrong', I still wouldn't change it. Why? I put a good amount of hours modeling and texturing these, and that's not going to waste.
The amount of work I put into designing and building a new unit is not a little change.I think it could be improved for the better with a little change.
Edited by Nertea, 15 July 2011 - 08:09 PM.
I really don't do requests and my Arnor Soldier is not fit for BFME. Don't ask me for either.
#35
Posted 15 July 2011 - 11:25 PM
#36
Posted 17 July 2011 - 05:29 PM
I really don't do requests and my Arnor Soldier is not fit for BFME. Don't ask me for either.
#37
Posted 17 July 2011 - 07:09 PM
Only using the swan would be correct according to lore.When upgraded with banners, the bearer carries a swan banner, I believe. That insignia is also present on Imrahil's shield and design. See above quote for why you can have both.On top of that the coat-of-arms of Dol Amroth is a ship with a swan prow, not just a swan.
Some old notes on the ship and the swan:
Some info from a PM send to another member a long time ago, might eventually be useful for others, too.
[...]
BELFALAS, as region the peninsula between Cobas Haven and the mouth of the rivers Gilrain/Serni [Linhir] including (most of) the land on both sides of the Hills south of Tarnost. It is unclear whether the eastern part of Dor-en-Ernil (land of the prince) is part of the region Belfalas or the region Lebennin. In the west it probably included the area around Edhellond.
Fiefdom:
- Belfalas was one great fief, ruled by Prince Imrahil of Dol Amroth, the fortified promotory to the south of Cobas Haven. The Fief of Dol Amroth was the greatest and strongest of all the southern fiefdoms.
It is the only fief with heraldy mentioned in the lore: "The Prince of Dol Amroth, Kinsman of The Lord of Minas Tirith, bears the token of a golden ship and a silver swan;" [HoMe Vol. VIII p. 287] - in RotK there are no references to the color of the ship, only to the silver swan, and sometimes it's only the swan that's mentioned!
[my personal interpretation of this is that the silver swan is symbolic of the princes' elvish heritage, and the golden ship their númenorean heritage - or the silver swan as symbol of Dol Amroth, and the golden ship symbol of Belfalas] - I know that these are usually pictured as being both white (or silver) on a blue background, but this is the only reference I can find on the colors of those symbols, but I might have overlooked something [I can't find the first five volumes of HoMe, might be in a box somewhere, or I've lost them]
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#38
Posted 17 July 2011 - 08:30 PM
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