The Essential Guide to Warfare
Started by
anakinskysolo
, Apr 07 2012 07:20 PM
102 replies to this topic
#41
evilbobthebob
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Posted 11 April 2012 - 02:55 AM
I was aware of this reasoning behind these battlecruisers. There are a lot of comics with background ships like that, because the artists are just drawing cool Imperial-style ships without worrying about canon. There's no reference that shows they're all battlecruiser scale, either. They could just be small support frigates. Anyway, I don't really care very much about ships like the Bellator getting into canon, though; at least not until we have to model them in PR
Phoenix Rising, head of mapping. Thanks to everyone who got us to the position below!
#42
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Posted 11 April 2012 - 03:57 AM
Dark Empire is the exception - you can measure the background ships based on the assumption of a fixed-size command tower. The dimensions are roughly consistent across panels. You're right about the models though.
#43
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Posted 11 April 2012 - 12:34 PM
he should work on the New Class ships. yeah the Endurance finally looks like it shares a keel with the Nebula, but it would be totally awesome if the entire program got a facelift, especially since the Cracken Threat Dossier images are still being used and those are not exactly the most satisfactory of images
and the ships he does have, STATS! PLEASE!!!! the ships look awesome and somewhat realistic, and i wanna see if they have equally realistic statistics
and the ships he does have, STATS! PLEASE!!!! the ships look awesome and somewhat realistic, and i wanna see if they have equally realistic statistics
Edited by Phoenix Rising, 11 April 2012 - 10:45 PM.
#44
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Posted 12 April 2012 - 03:31 AM
Trying to convince the guys at the Jedi Council Forums that the weapon counts for the MC140 that appear in Warfare don't make sense as they are based off the D20 RPG stats, which are just bullshit. This would mean that now the D20 stats apply in-universe, which is horrible. Take a look, I'm registered as ggrillo93: http://boards.thefor...fare.73/page-44
Edited by anakinskysolo, 12 April 2012 - 03:32 AM.
#45
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Posted 12 April 2012 - 04:15 AM
Pre-Saga d20 is good. Check out the original Starships of the Galaxy. You can usually get actual gun counts from Saga by multiplying the gunners, but it's not always a completely reliable method.
#46
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Posted 12 April 2012 - 06:06 AM
That is sad indeed, the armaments on the Pellaeon-class Star Destroyer and the MC140 Scythe-class main battle cruiser are meager, no matter how comparable their keel length is to an Imperial-class Star Destroyer.
In regards to Mon Calamari Star Cruisers, the problem is they are treating the Independence-class MC120 Star Cruiser (Home One-type) as merely a subclass of the MC80 Star Cruiser, like the Liberty-class (Liberty-type) and Reef Home-class (wingless Liberty-type), instead of its own class like PR has done.
In regards to Mon Calamari Star Cruisers, the problem is they are treating the Independence-class MC120 Star Cruiser (Home One-type) as merely a subclass of the MC80 Star Cruiser, like the Liberty-class (Liberty-type) and Reef Home-class (wingless Liberty-type), instead of its own class like PR has done.
"I'm just a simple man trying to make my way in the universe." - Jango Fett
"You are fooling yourself, Captain. Nothing here is what it seems. You are not the plucky hero, the Alliance is not an evil empire, and this is not the grand arena."
"And that's not incense." - The Operative and Inara Serra
"What you will see, if you leave the Mirror free to work, I cannot tell. For it shows things that were, and things that are, and things that yet maybe. But which it is that he sees, even the wisest cannot always tell. Do you wish to look?" - Galadriel
Clone Marshal Commander Zeta 1127 of the 89th Legion
Admiral Zebulon Wilhelm of Task Force Mystic/Fleet Junkie
"You are fooling yourself, Captain. Nothing here is what it seems. You are not the plucky hero, the Alliance is not an evil empire, and this is not the grand arena."
"And that's not incense." - The Operative and Inara Serra
"What you will see, if you leave the Mirror free to work, I cannot tell. For it shows things that were, and things that are, and things that yet maybe. But which it is that he sees, even the wisest cannot always tell. Do you wish to look?" - Galadriel
Clone Marshal Commander Zeta 1127 of the 89th Legion
Admiral Zebulon Wilhelm of Task Force Mystic/Fleet Junkie
#47
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Posted 12 April 2012 - 09:42 AM
It sounds like MC values turned out to be an indication of generation or how advanced the ship is, opposed to tonnage or something else. In that case, MC30 and 40 are quite old and I have no problem with calling the Independence a MC80.
#48
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Posted 12 April 2012 - 12:30 PM
could be both for the stuff running up to the Scythe class, or "classic" line. the -30 does strike me as a somewhat obsolescent craft. its weak hull might be due to it being an early design before some refinements in the design and construction of some of the more well known Mon Cal craft, like the MC-40 or 80.
incidentally, any chance for an MC-90 being added as a "Later Generation" destroyer? to be more specific, a ship that is produced after the Republic-class Star Destroyer. granted its known that the ship may be a little older than the RSD, but it seems like it would be a little more powerful, as it has nearly the same amount of Turbolasers (maybe with a +1 or +2 to make up for the loss of a few cannons, or perhaps make them doubles), a few more Ion Cannons (probably TurboIons), and a sextet of (probably Heavy) Proton Torpedo Launchers, in addition to twice as many Fighters and Bombers as the Republic. Its not a Star-Cruiser sized vessel, as its a hair longer (relative terms) than the Republic class, thus it could be built at a Class 4 Yard, it also seems to be a more efficient design in terms of crew compliment, 5860 compared to 8168 for the Republic, and has a better hyperdrive.
granted all stats were from wookiepedia, but theyre probably not inaccurate
incidentally, any chance for an MC-90 being added as a "Later Generation" destroyer? to be more specific, a ship that is produced after the Republic-class Star Destroyer. granted its known that the ship may be a little older than the RSD, but it seems like it would be a little more powerful, as it has nearly the same amount of Turbolasers (maybe with a +1 or +2 to make up for the loss of a few cannons, or perhaps make them doubles), a few more Ion Cannons (probably TurboIons), and a sextet of (probably Heavy) Proton Torpedo Launchers, in addition to twice as many Fighters and Bombers as the Republic. Its not a Star-Cruiser sized vessel, as its a hair longer (relative terms) than the Republic class, thus it could be built at a Class 4 Yard, it also seems to be a more efficient design in terms of crew compliment, 5860 compared to 8168 for the Republic, and has a better hyperdrive.
granted all stats were from wookiepedia, but theyre probably not inaccurate
#49
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Posted 12 April 2012 - 07:27 PM
I have no problem calling the Independence a MC80 either, but I am rather fond of the way you did things, and they are clearly large ships, something the continuity people don't seem to understand.It sounds like MC values turned out to be an indication of generation or how advanced the ship is, opposed to tonnage or something else. In that case, MC30 and 40 are quite old and I have no problem with calling the Independence a MC80.
"I'm just a simple man trying to make my way in the universe." - Jango Fett
"You are fooling yourself, Captain. Nothing here is what it seems. You are not the plucky hero, the Alliance is not an evil empire, and this is not the grand arena."
"And that's not incense." - The Operative and Inara Serra
"What you will see, if you leave the Mirror free to work, I cannot tell. For it shows things that were, and things that are, and things that yet maybe. But which it is that he sees, even the wisest cannot always tell. Do you wish to look?" - Galadriel
Clone Marshal Commander Zeta 1127 of the 89th Legion
Admiral Zebulon Wilhelm of Task Force Mystic/Fleet Junkie
"You are fooling yourself, Captain. Nothing here is what it seems. You are not the plucky hero, the Alliance is not an evil empire, and this is not the grand arena."
"And that's not incense." - The Operative and Inara Serra
"What you will see, if you leave the Mirror free to work, I cannot tell. For it shows things that were, and things that are, and things that yet maybe. But which it is that he sees, even the wisest cannot always tell. Do you wish to look?" - Galadriel
Clone Marshal Commander Zeta 1127 of the 89th Legion
Admiral Zebulon Wilhelm of Task Force Mystic/Fleet Junkie
#50
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Posted 12 April 2012 - 08:10 PM
they are clearly large ships, something the continuity people don't seem to understand.
Actually, I believe some of them understand but they hide behind "a typical MC80 is +- 1200m" and "all MC80s are unique pieces of art/engineering" and what not... With those kind of "side doors" a writer can easily dodge any continuity issues while still being able to stay "in the spirit" of established Star Wars canon.
It sounds like MC values turned out to be an indication of generation or how advanced the ship is
That way of looking at it is a brilliant interpretation, nice one!
In that case, MC30 and 40 are quite old
That, or, like you said, with significantly less advanced systems. After all, passenger liners and civilian cruisers in general do not require such advanced systems as can be found on exploration vessels. The guide says that while being built around occupied Dac, the ships were secretly modified so they could join the rebellion once safely away from imperial eyes. So the Mon Calamari used the seemingly non standardized aspect of their ships to conceal military grade, or near military grade, modular systems.So once in the Alliance's hands they could be converted into line ships.
Edited by P.O._210877, 12 April 2012 - 08:12 PM.
If it's hard then it's worth doing.
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me battrai pour les empêcher de détruire ce qui est devenue ma Terre.
Goldorak m'aidera. Au besoin, j'irai jusqu'au camp de la Lune Noire
puisque c'est là que Véga et ses monstres ont établi leur base. Et je la
détruirai.
Actarus
#51
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Posted 12 April 2012 - 08:41 PM
That makes sense, 210877. I was just working on our internal timeline and luxury-type ships seem to have long production runs - both the Personal Luxury Yacht 3000 and the Minstrel-class came out before TPM. I'll have to revisit the stats on the MC30/40.
The interesting thing about all three being MC80 is that we can now make pretty solid assumptions about the Independence stats, since they should just be upscaled Liberty technology. It'll definitely stay 3800 m though... RotJ trumps RPG.
The interesting thing about all three being MC80 is that we can now make pretty solid assumptions about the Independence stats, since they should just be upscaled Liberty technology. It'll definitely stay 3800 m though... RotJ trumps RPG.
Edited by Phoenix Rising, 12 April 2012 - 08:41 PM.
#52
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Posted 12 April 2012 - 09:01 PM
So PR, are you going to change it to MC value then class name, to emulate the MC140 Scythe-class main battle cruiser, in addition to dropping the MC120 designation on the Independence-class for the old MC80 designation?
"I'm just a simple man trying to make my way in the universe." - Jango Fett
"You are fooling yourself, Captain. Nothing here is what it seems. You are not the plucky hero, the Alliance is not an evil empire, and this is not the grand arena."
"And that's not incense." - The Operative and Inara Serra
"What you will see, if you leave the Mirror free to work, I cannot tell. For it shows things that were, and things that are, and things that yet maybe. But which it is that he sees, even the wisest cannot always tell. Do you wish to look?" - Galadriel
Clone Marshal Commander Zeta 1127 of the 89th Legion
Admiral Zebulon Wilhelm of Task Force Mystic/Fleet Junkie
"You are fooling yourself, Captain. Nothing here is what it seems. You are not the plucky hero, the Alliance is not an evil empire, and this is not the grand arena."
"And that's not incense." - The Operative and Inara Serra
"What you will see, if you leave the Mirror free to work, I cannot tell. For it shows things that were, and things that are, and things that yet maybe. But which it is that he sees, even the wisest cannot always tell. Do you wish to look?" - Galadriel
Clone Marshal Commander Zeta 1127 of the 89th Legion
Admiral Zebulon Wilhelm of Task Force Mystic/Fleet Junkie
#54
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Posted 12 April 2012 - 11:41 PM
Apart from what you noted about not answering the really hard, geeky questions, which was really not the book purpose according to the author (although I was disappointed too), the book is really, really good.
#55
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Posted 12 April 2012 - 11:42 PM
when I get EGtW!
Please tell me you, at least, already ordered it!
the book is really, really good
And the ART! Those are REALLY beautiful pieces.
Sorry for double posting
Edited by Phoenix Rising, 12 April 2012 - 11:55 PM.
If it's hard then it's worth doing.
- Alcor, Alcor pardonne-moi mais je ne veux pas que tu meurs. Je ne veux
pas que la planète bleue soit mise à feu et à sang par ces monstres. Je
me battrai pour les empêcher de détruire ce qui est devenue ma Terre.
Goldorak m'aidera. Au besoin, j'irai jusqu'au camp de la Lune Noire
puisque c'est là que Véga et ses monstres ont établi leur base. Et je la
détruirai.
Actarus
#56
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Posted 13 April 2012 - 12:45 AM
the book is really, really good
And the ART! Those are REALLY beautiful pieces.
Sorry for double posting
Indeed it is. I would have liked to have more pictures of ships that do not have canonical appereances as of yet, but I really have no right to complain.
#57
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Posted 13 April 2012 - 05:53 PM
This. Thisthisthisthis. As far as I'm concerned, a five-second "I need to fill this space" sketch (No offense to the artists, they got deadlines after all.) is a really dumb basis for having dozens of one-off ships that are never ever used for anything at all ever again. Especially not when half of them are 'more powerful than an Executor' but never do anything useful. (Hey, let's go hide while the Empire collapses! [Rebels never had the slightest encounter with them before...])I was aware of this reasoning behind these battlecruisers. There are a lot of comics with background ships like that, because the artists are just drawing cool Imperial-style ships without worrying about canon.
And don't get me started on that 'Executor could only bring 8 guns to bear on any target' thing. Glad that isn't canon.
/rant
Edited by Kitkun, 13 April 2012 - 05:56 PM.
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#58
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Posted 13 April 2012 - 06:37 PM
the whole 8 guns on a single target may be how the guns are grouped. 8 guns to a battery, each battery with its own gunnery officers, and during an engagement, targets are distributed to the various stations
Edited by johnchm.10, 13 April 2012 - 06:38 PM.
#59
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Posted 13 April 2012 - 06:57 PM
Still doesn't make any sense. That would require so few guns on the side trenches where the best fields of fire are as to be ludicrous. The Empire may like grandiose designs, but not ones that are just plain badly designed. I mean, even if they were all placed at dead-ends in the dorsal superstructure's trenches, they could still fire up. It just doesn't make logical sense.
Edited by Kitkun, 13 April 2012 - 07:02 PM.
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<DevXen> Today I was at the store and saw a Darth Vader action figure that said "Choking Hazard." It was great.
#60
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Posted 13 April 2012 - 07:13 PM
This. Thisthisthisthis.
I followed the forums on theforce.net for some time prior to the release and I remember Jason Fry actually addressing this issue. His take on the various ships (he actually took DE Byss as an example) is that if it looks like an ISD, or other well known designs,then it's artistic licence. If it is substantially different, then it's another class.
If it's hard then it's worth doing.
- Alcor, Alcor pardonne-moi mais je ne veux pas que tu meurs. Je ne veux
pas que la planète bleue soit mise à feu et à sang par ces monstres. Je
me battrai pour les empêcher de détruire ce qui est devenue ma Terre.
Goldorak m'aidera. Au besoin, j'irai jusqu'au camp de la Lune Noire
puisque c'est là que Véga et ses monstres ont établi leur base. Et je la
détruirai.
Actarus
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