Ukraine vs Russia

So, what do y'all think about it?

Aren't they same thing?  Hairy drunk men?

But one has Vodka, Bears and Tactical Nukes.

Edited by Atomic_Noodles, 04 March 2014 - 11:01 AM.

I pretty much lost my track when this new government rised up.

Until that, I felt Ukraine was doing what they had to. Honestly tho, this new government did shown some radical signs with them and while I oppose Putin's move, I don't think what this new Ukrainian government is doin is anything better. Especially now that they try to blow up WW3 with this WEST SAVE US FROM RUSSIAN MIGHT shout.

On another thought, I feel that if the Russian majority portions aim for the reunion, it's better for the country long time. It's pretty much known that the east parts had a totally different POV than the west.

Yes, Crimea's occupation is more than an aggressive act, but AFAIK no Russian force went further than that. If that stays as-is then I feel they can deal with the situation in a peaceful way.

After seeing some of his speech it seems like hes doing it to prevent this radical government taking over, or something. I'm not sure of that whole situation but from what I've heard it sounded like some strange stuff was happening. Either way I guess the West can't really talk, particularly the US, considering it's recent and not-so-recent reputation. At least so far the Russians haven't killed anyone to my knowledge, which is better than US records.

Even if they want to, they can't even try to deal with this with weapons.  That'd be a complete suicide run to WW3 with US-EU on one hand and Russia-China on the other. It escalated the level where supplying the forces through underground weapon smuggling is enough, this is a more direct approach.

Honestly speaking, I really hate my own government but I'm kinda less worried since we signed that nuclear plant building with Russia a month ago, so Hungary is on the both sides literally. I've heard some people feel this situation resembling the '56 uprising or the '68 invasion, but no reporters dare to say these here since it would be even more oil to the fire there was around here due to that nuke plant.

I don't know if it would be Russia-China. China has (publicly at least) disapproved of Russia's actions. However Russia just, in the worst possible timing unless they mean war, test fired an ICBM from near the Ukrainian border to Khazakstan. Definitely not traditional diplomacy.

I would assume China siding with Russia ultimately considering that in military questions they always allied excluding this now (North Korea comes in my mind) Not to mention that US has heavy sanctions towards Chinese stuff (and I think about the Huawei-Cisco conflict, and such) so while their opinion could differ regarding Ukraine, there's still more reason for that teamup than US-China.

With sanctions Europe is going to shot it's own foot. They need the fuel from the russians.

And I can't understand the Ukranians, how they would want to get the Euro if Euro countries are in deep economic trouble? Makes no sense.

Also, if things get uggly, maybe we could look for a WW3... Somehow I feel it's all going to end in pizza. However, as history has shown us all, world wars are always an answer for global economic crysis.

West-Europe is already getting out of the economical crysis. The German economy seems to save the day as usual. And it's no doubt that the EU invests a lot of money into East-Europe. Worst is (tho it might work better elsewhere) that our government actually relies on those investments, otherwise most of our upgrades/updates would simply never happen, and I can even belive that some nonprofit services are also running on purely EU money without no cent from the govt at all.

The Ukranians prolly wanted the Euro for this reason as well.

And I'll be honest. I don't want a WW3, especially not when I'm living on the actual possible frontline.

Edited by Graion Dilach, 04 March 2014 - 09:38 PM.

Fair enough.

I just wonder for how long West-Europe will try to sustain East-Europe. I mean, probably they do that in order to stop russian influence and to not flush the Euro down the toilet. A heritage from the not-so-old Cold War times. Thing is, everyone now wants money.  I personaly believe russian influence would be good for China and the other BRICS, but it would be bad for US and Europe itself.

However, as history has shown us all, world wars are always an answer for global economic crysis.

 

I don't think wars are really an answer at all, they're just the result of an economic crisis. What would be an answer to the economy problems is some genuinely good ideas instead of only perpetuating the shitty system in the first place by going to war. Also WW2 killed 2.5% of the population according to Wikipedia, definitely not an efficient way of reducing it, if that is the goal of your war.

If Humanity lets a WW3 happen then it has failed completely. We're reaching a point where we need to change rapidly in the face of massive ecological & economical issues. If our only resort is to avoid them and allow ourselves to be lead by the few, despite decades of education on the subject, into the biggest war in history, then we have failed as a species. Not just morally but literally.

I have failed in my GNP duties when I wasn't the one to make a thread about either the pre-revolution situation or this current-situation crisis.

There are many small variables at play here that resemble Georgia, but there is a core political ideology behind it: Russia considers its former USSR neighbors pawns and their secession from their rule a tragedy. Another political relic of the cold war is the "empire's backyard" gentleman's agreement. The USA considers South America its backyard and leaves Soviet's backyard alone if Soviet does so for the USA.

This was more the case in Georgia when a new generation of western-educated transparency/non-corruption and reform-friendly elites, bureaucrats and administrators took over the rule there, around 2004. in 2008, Russia is plenty annoyed with the sprouting democracy on their borders and they decide its time to add some heat to their border-conflicts where ethnic Russians are gathered. Georgia responds to local militia's attack, Russia responds twentyfold, making it very clear that the counties Abkazia and north Ossetia are under Russian control. Pretty much only Russia and their closest friends recognize these as independent states. Georgia trundles on, but Russia made a good showing of their power and they have made it clear that they can step on any political developments in their backyard they don't like.

Back then we also talked that the situation was pretty much the same in Ukraine, with large doses of Russians in the east and on Crimea. Back then Russia wasn't as rich and powerful as they are today, but they probably would have done the same in the first Orange revolution had they expected it a few years in advance.

Now, on the other hand, Russia knew that Ukraine was likely to fall back into revolutionary hands after a while with Janukovic in charge. He's done a remarkable good job stealing a large percentage of the Ukraine budget, pushing it to his dentist son's accounts, making him a multibillionaire. Many articles have shown a lot of the extravagance of the pro-russians palaces built the last 5 years.

Anyway, one of the main reasons the revolutions started now was because Janukovic was out of money and was looking for a big brother to help support his bloodsucking. He is in dialogue with the EU, which sees the fertile soils of Ukraine as a land with great potential but with terrible corrupt administration. But by now, Putin and Russia have become rich enough to plan for a Eurasian Union, where Belarus and Kazakstan already are members, and he wishes to yank Ukraine into this new version of the USSR where Moscow is the boss and the rest are merely satelites.

Janukovic is a bit hesitant as he prefers to stay independent, but he also knows that if he goes into a deal with the EU, he'll be forced to stop stealing as much as he does. Putin, most likely, comes with a fine deal promising him and his family for generations absolute power over Ukraine, as long as he's loyal to him, and he'll pay for their luxurious lives as long as he keeps his country loyal to the Russian Eurasian union. Janukovic decides this is the best to keep his current situation stabile, but he is not a master of politics. The people are tired, and many have seen the freedom and increased economic well-being that the EU have given to the former eastern-european nations people. Not just the elites, but for everyone. And so the revolution slowly begins. 

Now, Russia was prepared for this. They knew that they had large ethnic groups of Russian in the nation and that it was likely that the revolution would come back. Ukraine is a border country to the EU, looking over the border to see the splendors developing there gives them hopes for something better than Russian-controlled authoritarian, outdated, elitist and corrupt government. This is a great, great threat for Putin's Russia as well. A neighboring country with a large group of ethnic Russians potentially becoming colored by western Europe's social-democratic and freedom-oriented ideologies? It would be the end of their pocket-filling party and end with the demands of their heads on stakes.

Also note; the small demonstrations in Moscow where all anti-war protesters were arrested instantly while teachers and other public employees were given paid leave to go and demonstrate against the revolution and for the events on Crimea.

To sum up this wall: Putin's Russia considers Ukraine an asset and a threat. It is potentially powerful as an ally, troops and numbers and resources are important to look big and burly. And it is potentially dangerous as a lost ally, going over to the EU, showing signs of economic and democratic progress and telling Russians that there's nothing in the way for them to get the same blessings... if only they got rid of their current rulers

Another thing to notice is that it's now about 23 years since Soviet fell. It took about 21 years for Germany to lose the war until they created another, the heart-felt loss and economic chaos and punishment after the war being two of the main motivators for the rise of the Nazi empire. As far as I'm concerned, Putin's Russia has finally regained its economic clout, and it is now doing as many other nations have done before it: Licking its wounds and planning revenge.

This is a very good article about most I've mentioned about Ukraine above.

Another thing to notice is that it's now about 23 years since Soviet fell. It took about 21 years for Germany to lose the war until they created another, the heart-felt loss and economic chaos and punishment after the war being two of the main motivators for the rise of the Nazi empire. As far as I'm concerned, Putin's Russia has finally regained its economic clout, and it is now doing as many other nations have done before it: Licking its wounds and planning revenge.

Same can be said in China and their growing tensions in naval territory claims with other countries in the Southeast Asia

I don't like the sound of that. I mean, I can't argue with that but I just really don't like the possibility.

Not to mention all those nukes everyone has around. I guess WW3 would end up in fallout.

I remember what Nostradamus said in one of his quatrains, I'll simplify it as this. There will always be a time of peace and there will always be a time of war. There's a specific quatrain for that, I just forgot what number it is.
 

War and Peace. Thank you captain obvious. =D

War and Peace. Thank you captain obvious. =D

So where's the meme picture?

You get two images.