42 replies to this topic

[Nazgûl]

What is your opinion on how PJ chose to portray the Iron Hills dwarves in BotFA? I find them to be very (too) similar to the Erebor dwarves, and the almost identical design of the heavy armor they wear seems pretty redundant imo. Especially with the equally heavy armored orcs in this movie which makes it all look so medieval  One could imagine that the Iron Hills under Dain's rule, would be a fairly separate culture from Erebor. That's how I wanted to portray them in SEE anyways, but now I have to rethink that somewhat...

[Rider of Rohan]

I liked the armor, if you really look into it it's pretty different from Erebor's set

[MattTheLegoman]

Look at the Art & Design books. If you're unhappy with PJ's exact design these might come in handy. =D

 

http://wetaworkshop....ve-armies-2014/

 

Edited by MattTheLegoman, 24 March 2015 - 02:37 AM.

[Nazgûl]

The bottom part is Dain's helmet, and the upper is the armor of an Iron Hills soldier, right? How is that very different from Erebor? 

 

 

 

[MattTheLegoman]

Okay - a little different. =p

 

Those were the only available ones I found on the WETA website. Let me run through my book. =p

 

Pages 138-139 of Bof5A Art & Design are perfect if you want alternative designs. Some are like a mini Dain's helmet, others are more similar to the Erebor design but more ornamental, others use a more rounded design.

Edited by MattTheLegoman, 24 March 2015 - 03:35 AM.

[njm1983]

I dont necessarily mind the similarities, erebor and the Iron hills were close enough to have traded and shared armour technology.Banners would be a really cool way to differentiate the types on the battle field if you feel like the armor is too similar.

[Dark Lord]

In my humble opinion is not that the idea of all that is medieval times? I love to medieval times, and the integration of all in the Hobbit

 

The Armor of the Iron Hills has subtle differences, although they are of the same houses of Durin, with sane with dwarf trade are very close to sharing technologies in weapons and armor

 

The beauty of armor, beautiful details you notice the subtle differences

 

Erebor

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Iron Hills

 

 

 

 

 

 

[MattTheLegoman]

Well yeah, there you go. =D

[Lauri]

What is your opinion on how PJ chose to portray the Iron Hills dwarves in BotFA? I find them to be very (too) similar to the Erebor dwarves, and the almost identical design of the heavy armor they wear seems pretty redundant imo. Especially with the equally heavy armored orcs in this movie which makes it all look so medieval  One could imagine that the Iron Hills under Dain's rule, would be a fairly separate culture from Erebor. That's how I wanted to portray them in SEE anyways, but now I have to rethink that somewhat...

There was 171 years between the arrival of Smaug and the Battle of the Five Armies, so I find it disappointing that they stick so closely to the Erebor design for the dwarves of the Iron Hills. Yes, they probably had close relations and traded armor and what-not, but 171 years is still plenty of time to come up with new ideas and better armor after Erebor fell. Then again, it's hard to compare to the real word, because Middle-Earth hardly has any technological advances at all over thousands of years, while in the real world you can now kill people by pressing a button on a computer. Given that dwarves live longer than 171 years, it could be argued that it's logical that they keep their armor for life, as long as it's repaired and kept in good condition. Then again, the armor is uniform for all dwarves, so they would have had to switch it all out at the same time. The economy is also quite neglected in Middle-Earth, bar some trading here and there, so I assume that all armor is owned by the state, having no problems outfitting all who serve the armies.

 

Though I've read little besides LotR, The Hobbit and Unfinished Tales, so I shouldn't speculate too much on the economy of ME. It does appear to be logical that the armor stays the same over 171 years though, given that the enemy's weapons doesn't improve to provide a need to upgrade for the dwarves. Still disappointed in the lack of imagination though, would've liked to see a new design

[Nazgûl]

Lauri: WORD!   

 

I think that I will stick to my initial plan... to keep dwarven faction an Erebor faction first and foremost (just like the "Wild" faction will be Moria based, rather than Gundabad). I really want some light infantry for dwarves to balance up the heavy Erebor soldiers, and as such, we could go with Iron Hills "skirmishers" or whatever we want to cal them. But the model would be light armored in GW style with leather, chainmails, round shields, axes and swords.

Edited by Nazgûl, 24 March 2015 - 03:26 PM.

[Bashkuga]

Uhm why should one change it's armor anyway in 178 years? They already wear the heaviest armor available so I don't see how they should "improve" it. If it weren't for gunpowder we would probably still be wearing the same type of armour from 500 years ago.

Also why should the Iron Hills and Erebor armour be so different from each other? Western European countries in medieval times wore the same armour, with only some minor differences. Yes the Arabs or Russians had their own unique design, but that's because the cultural differences with the other countries were very big. Living in steppes or deserts had their influences too, but both Dwarven counties lived under the same conditions and they share a similiar culture.

In other words you guys are too spoiled with all those awesome designs from weta that similarities are not welcome anymore .

[Lauri]

I pretty much already agreed what you said already, but armor can always be improved. The problem is that orcs don't appear to give a shit about how crap their weapons are, so the dwarves don't really need to improve their armor, but there's always room for improvement. They could try something lighter, but with more maneuverability. Or whatever they wanted. Oh, and there's no such thing as "heavier is better".

 

The thing that really disappoints me about the arms and armor of LotR\Hobbit, is that everyone (bar Rohan, and the forces of Evil [bar Rhûn, Isengard Uruks and Gundabad Orcs]) have really uniform armies. Prior to the Siege of Minas Tirith, Gondor got reinforcements to the city from the Southern Fiefdoms. They all had some descriptive details on gear, and the same applies for the men who arrived with Aragorn up the river. In the film? All wearing plate armor.

 

Because this is for a mod, is it really too much to ask that you'd be able to differentiate these special Dwarves of the Iron Hills? Instead of having to zoom up and say "Oh look, it's got a dwarven face on the shoulder".

You can spot the difference between the elves of Rivendell, Lorien and Mirkwood easily enough, but the dwarves of the Iron Hills and Erebor are, at least seen far away, "identical".

[Nazgûl]

Because this is for a mod, is it really too much to ask that you'd be able to differentiate these special Dwarves of the Iron Hills? Instead of having to zoom up and say "Oh look, it's got a dwarven face on the shoulder".

You can spot the difference between the elves of Rivendell, Lorien and Mirkwood easily enough, but the dwarves of the Iron Hills and Erebor are, at least seen far away, "identical".

 

 

That's the problem I'm facing, and as such, I think the best way to go is to focus on Erebor and have Iron Hills as a "mini faction" with only one horde, and that being light armored guys that we are free to design any way we see fit, as they are not in the movie.

[MattTheLegoman]

Sounds like fun. =D

[njm1983]

Banners. use banners to differentiate them. I never really liked banners to signify rank 2.

[Nazgûl]

Dain will naturally be in SEE, featured like in the movie. But for the warriors, I will much like before BotFA, aim for something like this... (to differentiate them from Erebor, both in looks and gameplay)-

Round helmets and shields, swords and axes. Light infantry. There is not much fun and variety if the dwarven faction will consist of super heavy armored dudes all over.

Edited by Nazgûl, 25 March 2015 - 11:58 PM.

[GhostOfDurin]

Actually, you could make that a starter unit for both factions (well, maybe similar, I wouldn't have the EXACT same starter unit) and have the heavy armoured units be elite units that come in late game.

(Sorry if I have made any errors in describing the way you could make it for your mod gameplay-wise, I haven't looked into SEE all that much yet)

[MattTheLegoman]

I recommend a few more details and design features. Those GW Dwarves do look a bit simple and generic.

 

Details like:

• the boar themed helmet crest (to tie them into the Iron Hills theme)
• and a pattern on the shield
• and match their armour to the colour used for Dain's armour for visual consistancy =D

I think they will be good for a light infantry, or as 'light' as you're going to get Dwarves. =p

[Nazgûl]

Yeah... I was really hoping that I wouldn't need to much more modeling for these two factions of the first realease, but I guess I have to rethink that... Unless I can somehow get help from someone, like Val that made the Erebor dwarves. But we have a slight diffrent apporach to design (he's way better at keeping low poly as well) so I fear that if I model these guys myself, they will differ too much from his, or whoever might model them. Dilemma...

 

As for the mod and gameplay issues, we relaly need early game "light" infantry of some sort as the heavy armored Erebor soldiers will be both the main spearmen and sword/axemen units.

Edited by Nazgûl, 26 March 2015 - 03:18 PM.

[GhostOfDurin]

Could do something like these for Erebor as a early game, as for the Iron Hills:

There's your early game Iron Hills unit.