46 replies to this topic

[jony121]

As you are probably aware, the OpenRA project plans to roll out RA2 and TS support this year.

 

 

What I am curious about is the potential of porting MO over to the OpenRA engine. Obviously this comes with many advantages, most notably better networking, less restricted modification, support and cross platform capability.

 

What are some potential licensing issues concerning the works of MO? Can an unofficial source release a port for example, or are there rights reserved on code, content and name by MO developers?

 

What special features does MO3 utilise from the current ARES engine that would require porting?

 

Also, as a side question, how much of the MO content is original? Having complete properly licensed content would allow redistribution.

[Speeder]

What special features does MO3 utilise from the current ARES engine that would require porting?

Almost all of them.

If we decided to move to OpenRA it would definitely be with the aim to create our own world with our own factions with Foehn being the primary one, while doing heavy alterations to what used to be the "vanilla sides of Red Alert 2". However considering how many features from Ares Mental Omega is heavily relying on I don't see that happening in the near future, if ever.

 

Of course the question of 'how much of the MO content is original' is irrelevant here as we'd replace all of the content we don't own for the new project.

 

Also another big problem is how we'd have to remake or just simply scrap all of our 72+ missions and the maps we've created. I have not yet familiarized myself with the OpenRA engine, I know it's possible to export the skirmish maps and their layouts in general but not sure about mission scripts, that's probably out of question for now.

[Plokite_Wolf]

Speeder, the problem of using WW assets can be dealt with simply - have them install off the RA2/YR discs or an existing installation, similarly to what OpenRA and OpenTTD do.

[Speeder]

Yes I know, that's what the next Mental Omega version installer will do too.

 

But when or if we do our own project we'll want it to be our own.

[Graion Dilach]

Mission scripts will never get a conversion tool. That's for sure. OpenRA uses a real scripting language (Lua) instead of the WW hardwired mess of a system and the conversion would imply a code generator which probably won't happen. The TD/RA/D2k missions are pretty much converted by hand via rescripting as well. You get the objects converted over though (this includes the waypoints) but don't expect more than that.

 

While OpenRA will catch up to Ares-YR in terms of features, I'd say that will still need 4-5 years - by that time, I guess the MO project already reaches the release and will only bugfix. Although, again, catching up might not be the correct definition, since Ares and NPExt have different terms of features as well today and there might be still projects which feel NPExt suits them better.

 

One of the main differences between OpenRA and YR though is the system requirements and the gen2 mods as they are demand a lot of GPU power due to voxels being laggy. By lot of GPU, I say, below a Radeon HD5000, you have no chance to get a stable fps if we think about an equivalent of MO3 BR1. Ofc by that 5 year, this sudden perf demand might be negligible/voxel render might get a rewrite to be less laggy, but at this point, it'd probably exclude a lot of players to enjoy the game.

 

TLDR: It's for the better if MO will not try to convert from Ares.

 

Also, the OpenRA project never implied to roll support for TS or RA2. What OpenRA implied is that they might ship a preview of TS within the next three release cycles. Keep in mind that this last release cycle took 5 months from Christmas to yesterday. The RA2 mod is also an unofficial mod and was never stated to be even shipped with your base install. Also keep in mind that while D2k is there for years now, it was only last year where it got revamped from the technical presentation (RA with sand as it was called internally) into a near-close D2k experience with some features (starport, Death Hand missile) still missing. A preview is not a full support and you have no idea how much work needs to be done to call the result a mod and not a technical demo pretty much.

 

OTOH, OpenRA's additive blending might hide the fact better how Lame Tempest is just a plain standard ParticleIllusion effect without much effort poured into it...

Edited by Graion Dilach, 09 May 2016 - 06:39 PM.

[Solais]

Maybe at this point, after current MO is done, you should do your own RTS game.

[lovalmidas]

If needed, I can learn the mission scripts.

I will agree however that we probably will not simply 'convert' MO for use in OpenRA (if we so choose to move).
OpenMO will likely be as similar to MO3.0 as MO3.0 was similar to MO2.0.

"You should do your own RTS game," well, I do want to be paid for it if I'm going to do that in the far future. Staying alive isn't cheap.
Unless of course magic happens.

Edited by lovalmidas, 10 May 2016 - 02:21 PM.

[fir3w0rx]

The only significant difference between MO and OpenMO (if ever made) that I can think of is the really nice REPLAY feature that newer rts games have.

 

Other features are either not really necessary (but still very cool) such as the menu with the war happening in the background with the panning camera and also the zoom (double pixel) feature to name a few, or they can be added through normal MO/YR modding anyway such as game features like FOG OF WAR and adjusting the TECH LEVEL.

 

But of course OpenRA being open-source makes adding features so much easier than modding YR (and adding Ares abilities), which gives it so much more potential in the future.

[fir3w0rx]

Maybe at this point, after current MO is done, you should do your own RTS game.

Another rts game to add to the countless rts games already out there will fail (in my opinion anyway, but prove me wrong!). I think a MMORTS will have a much better chance of success.

 

(whoops, double post )

Edited by fir3w0rx, 27 May 2016 - 02:34 PM.

[Solais]

"Countless RTS games out there", right. It's almost a dead genre. New RTS is what's really needed now.

[Graion Dilach]

The only significant difference between MO and OpenMO (if ever made) that I can think of is the really nice REPLAY feature that newer rts games have.

Then you have no idea what are you talking about. As I implied it in my previous post, an 1:1 conversion is impossible. There will be a lot of behind-the-curtain adjustments and such engine changes - probably a complete refactoring as well - to adjust the mod to the engine/overcome the missing Ares features which are outnumbered by the OpenRA options during the assumed conversion timeframe.

At this point OpenRA has even missing TD/RA features (damage flames) but since the OpenRA gameplay is rebalanced around what is implemented, they don't turn out a problem, unless you're an avid RA1 fan.

[fir3w0rx]

 

The only significant difference between MO and OpenMO (if ever made) that I can think of is the really nice REPLAY feature that newer rts games have.

Then you have no idea what are you talking about. As I implied it in my previous post, an 1:1 conversion is impossible. There will be a lot of behind-the-curtain adjustments and such engine changes - probably a complete refactoring as well - to adjust the mod to the engine/overcome the missing Ares features which are outnumbered by the OpenRA options during the assumed conversion timeframe.

At this point OpenRA has even missing TD/RA features (damage flames) but since the OpenRA gameplay is rebalanced around what is implemented, they don't turn out a problem, unless you're an avid RA1 fan.

 

I'm sure from a programmer's point of view there will be countless differences if OpenMO was made. But from a gamer's point of view there wouldn't be. Not at the moment anyway, based on what I've seen in the current OpenRA mods (D2k, TD and RA), again from a gamer's point of view. But that said, in the future, who knows what other features you guys will add, maybe features that wouldn't even be possible using Ares. But at the time of this post, from an end-user/gamer's point of view, the only significant difference that I've seen and also cannot be done in RA2/YR/MO modding, is the replay feature.

[Plokite_Wolf]

I'm sure from a programmer's point of view there will be countless differences if OpenMO was made. But from a gamer's point of view there wouldn't be.

Regular TD/RA1 are quite distinct from OpenRA from all possible views. FFS, even the balance isn't the same.

But that said, in the future, who knows what other features you guys will add, maybe features that wouldn't even be possible using Ares.

Only if Mentalmeisters get programming on OpenRA itself.

But at the time of this post, from an end-user/gamer's point of view, the only significant difference that I've seen and also cannot be done in RA2/YR/MO modding, is the replay feature.

RA2 already has an inbuilt replay system. Rudimentary, unreliable, underdeveloped and unusable versus non-AI players, but it still has one. It's just that nobody wanted to decompile it and improve it yet. http://www.cncnz.com...-alert-2-games/

[fir3w0rx]

Regular TD/RA1 are quite distinct from OpenRA from all possible views. FFS, even the balance isn't the same.

We can argue all day about what are small differences and what are distinct differences in the games because at the end of the day the definition of the level of difference between the original games and the OpenRA mods depends on personal opinion. To some, or maybe even most, the balance, user interface, build queuing, not being able to build unless there is a CY nearby, the overall look and feel... might be distinct differences, but to me (and maybe only me ) OpenRA, with the exception of the replay feature, still looks and feels very similar to the originals, but with minor changes (yes I know that a shit load of work has gone into it, but I know nothing about what goes on behind the scenes! ).
 

RA2 already has an inbuilt replay system. Rudimentary, unreliable, underdeveloped and unusable versus non-AI players, but it still has one. It's just that nobody wanted to decompile it and improve it yet. http://www.cncnz.com...-alert-2-games/

Yeah I know, that's been documented on other sites as well such as this one. It sux that the recording feature wasn't completed by EA/Westwood (or anyone else for that matter). I've actually asked several C&C communities (I think all of them, including MO and OpenRA) if this feature could be worked on, but sadly no positive replies.

[Graion Dilach]

Okay, so you're not just have no idea what you're talking about, you're also plain ignorant to even acknowledge those differences.

Plokite: TBH, even without programming, people could get a lot with there. I have a feeling by the time MO would jump to OpenRA, there will be enough third-party logic DLLs to include and work with. And from our ignorant's POV, an OpenRA feature which Ares lacked is a new one, regardless where it came from, first-party, third-party or MM (say, independent factory queues).

[fir3w0rx]

Geez, i'm not even allowed to have my own opinion

[Plokite_Wolf]

@firew0rx - you can have your opinion, but it won't be any less wrong if you don't know what you're saying, especially when saying differences are relative when they're absolute.

Plokite: TBH, even without programming, people could get a lot with there. I have a feeling by the time MO would jump to OpenRA, there will be enough third-party logic DLLs to include and work with. And from our ignorant's POV, an OpenRA feature which Ares lacked is a new one, regardless where it came from, first-party, third-party or MM (say, independent factory queues).

Perhaps, but it would still take a while to implement RA2/YR/Ares-specific features. MO is fine where it is, IMHO.

Edited by Plokite_Wolf, 30 May 2016 - 09:52 AM.

[Atomic_Noodles]

To be honest you'd be better off making an Independent Stand Alone game using ORA than using the original Game's Storylines if you really want to maximize the use from it. And idk if it's allowed maybe even charge for it?

[fir3w0rx]

@firew0rx - you can have your opinion, but it won't be any less wrong if you don't know what you're saying, especially when saying differences are relative when they're absolute.

You and Graion are both absolute... absolutely NUTS about your OpenRA! (which I've enjoyed btw and still continue to whenever I have the time).
 

To be honest you'd be better off making an Independent Stand Alone game using ORA than using the original Game's Storylines if you really want to maximize the use from it. And idk if it's allowed maybe even charge for it?

I would pay for MO if it wasn't free (and if the MM owned the rights to it of course).

[MusketMarine]

If MO is going to be ported over to OpenRA...

 

The Campaign would be a hassle to remake.

 

And don't forget all the assets required to be remade.

 

The only things that would be easily transferred are the sounds.

 

Don't forget remaking Ares in the new engine. (That's probably the hardest part.)

 

OpenMO will most likely be Skirmish/Multiplayer only...