25 replies to this topic

[PurpleGaga27]

Rather than posting a new thread in the Petrolution forums since it's mostly inactive, I decided to post one here.

 

First comes 8-Bit Armies, then comes 8-Bit Hordes, and now comes 8-Bit Invaders (which will be released sometime in November of this year). The lack of stories and just plain gameplay does not surprise C&C and other RTS fans. Invaders, imo, feels like an expansion pack just like Hordes, to the original 8-Bit Armies.

 

 

I don't like the fact that Petroglyph are milking in more money by splitting smaller RTS games like this, and besides these types of RTS games fits better on mobile gaming than on the PC. Besides wouldn't it better if 8-Bit Armies, Hordes and now Invaders be merged as an all-in-one 8-Bit RTS game? An "8-Bit All-Stars" title would seal the deal.

 

Not sure what Frank Klepacki will bring in the new music which will be something similar to Starcraft. After all, FK's music is better than the games themselves.

 

Coming soon: 8-Bit Grey Goo, 8-Bit UAW and 8-Bit EON?

Edited by zocom7, 25 September 2016 - 07:39 PM.

[Pasidon]

Invaders, imo, feels like an expansion pack just like Hordes, to the original 8-Bit Armies.

Oh, I thought they were expansions.

 

So Com, what exactly do you not like about Petroglyph making these sort of games?  I honestly don't like them either, for the reasons I put in the shoutbox and a few other design decisions, but I don't see the metaphorical cow here, nor a milking.  They seem like perfectly standard RTS games, just extremely simplified in terms of graphics and concepts.  

[Atomic_Noodles]

They announced way before they had planned "6 Factions" with 8-Bit Invaders that's pretty much all the ones they had planned. It does seem bit like a money-grabbing scheme gating 4 out of the Playable Factions within separate Purchases (Only matters if you play Multiplayer). Hopefully they'll release a bundle in the future which includes all of the 8-Bit RTS Games in one package.

[Pasidon]

Petroglyph usually release their games at a full 60 dollars, though.  Grey Goo certainly did and no one really argued the price of that.  As it stands, if they plan to have 4 iterations of their 8-bit RTS, that is about the same as their usual fare since they're all 15 dollars individually. I don't think their reach for money is entirely unfair, but I really don't understand why these are separate games at all.  

 

Also Com, you said that they don't feature offline co-op missions... but it seems like you might have missed your fact-checking there a bit.  The Steam pages do in fact advertise co-op missions, though there are a limited number:

 

12 co-op missions to play with your friends 

[OmegaBolt]

Yeah you can hardly call it milking. I think it would be better if they built tall and made 8bit Armies deeper by at least making interesting, varied unit rosters and so on, but it doesn't seem like the subsequent releases have been lesser than earlier ones so I don't see how its any kind of cash grab, if anything the games are getting a bit bigger. They're a lot like the standalone DOW expansions in that they can all be used together to play any faction from the 8-bit releases in multiplayer, which I think is a very good concept and certainly helps add variety in games which sorely need it.

 

From a developers standpoint I think what theyre doing makes sense (and even from a consumer point too IMO). If they had taken a year longer and released all 6 six factions, all the missions, coops, etc together in one $60 package, I don't think it would have sold half as well as it (may) have/has done. The chances of success and the need for a larger return make big projects much riskier, but releasing smaller games at lower prices gives you a chance. The games don't get buried immediately on Steam, they bring in a stream of revenue to continue developing further games, they tell you whether or not it's worth continuing (if 8-bit Armies hadn't done well enough they probably wouldn't have done the other two) etc. This is why a lot of games do paid-for alphas etc, except here the consumer doesn't have any of the risk. They get what they pay for.

Edited by OmegaBolt, 27 September 2016 - 12:38 AM.

[PurpleGaga27]

I finally get to play some 8-Bit Invaders (which is released today) and the only thing new in that game is how Petroglyph developed a global conquest mode (similar to C&C3 Kane's Wrath) known as the Multiverse.

 

Also instead of Victory! A Winner is You!, they even copycat the world ending quote from Super Mario Bros...... Victory! Thank you! But our leader is in another planet!

 

Come on, Petroglyph.   

Edited by PurpleGaga27, 17 December 2016 - 06:42 AM.

[Plokite_Wolf]

Hopefully they'll release a bundle in the future which includes all of the 8-Bit RTS Games in one package.

 

http://store.steampo...?snr=1_5_9__403 (it's missing the Guardians faction DLC for some reason, even though it's free)

 

Yeah you can hardly call it milking.(...)

 

From a developers standpoint I think what theyre doing makes sense (and even from a consumer point too IMO).

 

If paid mods were a possible, legal and moral thing, I can name quite a few which would be worth far more than a bland game repeated several times over in different skins just because Petro is desperate and inept.

Edited by Plokite_Wolf, 17 December 2016 - 03:24 PM.

[OmegaBolt]

If paid mods were a possible, legal and moral thing, I can name quite a few which would be worth far more than a bland game repeated several times over in different skins just because Petro is desperate and inept.

...and? Quality has nothing to do with whether theyre "milking" it or not, or that people have been mislead. I never claimed the games were good.

[Plokite_Wolf]

It is milking if it's the same shit over and over, only reskinned (greetings, Call of Battlefield!)

 

Without even going into the game's quality further, the release model is complete shambles. All of this could have been released as a single game half a year ago, as it apparently took minimal effort to create those new sides. Contrarily to you, I think the game would have been more polished and therefore more appealing to actually intelligent non-casual players if it was given a longer development cycle and all content already there at release. If what they're doing here is okay with you, I don't want to see you complain on EA, Ubisoft or other AAA publishers doing the same thing.

[OmegaBolt]

I don't see them doing the same thing, though I don't follow or generally buy their games (though neither have I bought 8-bit X). There's no reason, however, why the game would've been more polished at all with a longer development process and the same end goals. If they had made the same amount of content in the same time then it would've been exactly what you've got now but 1-2 years later, and just as boring. However, going that route, they most likely wouldn't have had the budget to develop the title at all, which is they made and released smaller products. None of their games have been particularly successful since Universe at War (and I don't even know how financially successful that was either), so they clearly need to create a more regular revenue stream by releasing smaller titles more often with an efficient development process (which means not developing much new technology each time). They did try go the F2P route with Victory Command or whatever, but I think that disappeared almost immediately after alpha/beta.

Either way they're releasing £15 games for £15 prices, so I really can't see the issue. This is nothing like EA releasing Battlefront 2 for £50 with less than half the content of the orginal game and on top that selling a season pass at launch and charging the equivalent of an 8-bit Armies game for an item of clothing.

Presumably by your way of thinking you also dislike RA1, as that reused a lot of Tib Dawn assets. Or the many Dawn of War expansions for not being entirely new games instead?

Edited by OmegaBolt, 17 December 2016 - 08:38 PM.

[Plokite_Wolf]

I don't see them doing the same thing

There is no difference between 8-Bit Armies, Hordes and Invaders other than the visuals, from what I can tell. Back in my day, base games were (almost?) complete products and their expansions brought a few new things that spiced it all up, not Ctrl-C/Ctrl-V + Find/Replace Skin.
 

There's no reason, however, why the game would've been more polished at all with a longer development process and the same end goals.

There is reason - those who silently or loudly laugh at everything they've made since the 8-Bit Armies announcement trailer could have bought the game if it had a development time longer than an average B-grade mod.
 

If they had made the same amount of content in the same time then it would've been exactly what you've got now but 1-2 years later, and just as boring.

But not as expensive.
 

However, going that route, they most likely wouldn't have had the budget to develop the title at all, which is they made and released smaller products.

This is solely their own problem. As I said, a B-grade mod can have a development cycle this long. Petroglyph supposedly has experience with developing RTS games, yet every single one they made except Star Wars: Empire at War flopped terribly. Universe at War was somehow unappealing to a wider audience (Tiberium Wars and SupCom must have gathered all the attention at the time for their own specialties that UAW lacked), Grey Goo was bland, 8-Bit Armies ended up being downright stupified.
 

They did try go the F2P route with Victory Command or whatever, but I think that disappeared almost immediately after alpha/beta.

It was apparently too boring for Kickstarter.
 

Either way they're releasing £15 games for £15 prices, so I really can't see the issue. This is nothing like EA releasing Battlefront 2 for £50 with less than half the content of the orginal game and on top that selling a season pass at launch and charging the equivalent of an 8-bit Armies game for an item of clothing.

These are nominal, non-discount prices on Steam for each 8-Bit X, expressed in Euros:

• 8-Bit Armies (1 faction): €14,99
• 8-Bit Armies - Guardians faction DLC (1 extra faction for previous): free
• 8-Bit Armies - Guardians campaign DLC (requires previous two): €3,99
• 8-Bit Hordes (2 factions, standalone) - €14,99
• 8-Bit Invaders (2 factions, standalone) - €19,99
• Total: €53,96

This is almost the price of a full AAA game at release. So, you can ALMOST, for a difference of less than €7, buy Civilization Fucking VI for the price of the full 8-Bit Armies experience.

 

The bundle that includes all of that is €38,89. For a difference of just €6,28, you can get Civilization V with all its expansions and individual DLCs.

 

8-Bit Armies is hardly worth torrenting even, and you claim it's a £15 game? Get real. That price tag used to be reserved for actual budget titles, not testaments to laziness.

 

Presumably by your way of thinking you also dislike RA1, as that reused a lot of Tib Dawn assets. Or the many Dawn of War expansions for not being entirely new games instead?

No. RA1 was an evolution of TD, not a copypaste. DoW expansions brought new content in the form of factions with different specialties and gameplay, and new missions (the latter not counting Soulstorm...). Vanilla DoW also didn't have just one faction just because the developers were too lazy/desperate to make some more - it had four. FOUR. NOT ONE. And a STORY-DRIVEN campaign, which Petroglyph managed to advertise as a bad thing.

Edited by Plokite_Wolf, 18 December 2016 - 11:00 AM.

[Pasidon]

I don't even like the game and I think the price is fair.  Each expansion is much, much more than just visual content, so you might want to do a bit more research on what the games and expansions are actually providing before you get deeper into your math labyrinth.  It's a business model banking on the risk of people actually enjoying the previous expansions, so if they're just shoveling junk into the content train, no one is going to buy the later bits.

[Plokite_Wolf]

I don't even like the game and I think the price is fair.  Each expansion is much, much more than just visual content,

 

Care to elaborate?
 

so you might want to do a bit more research on what the games and expansions are actually providing before you get deeper into your math labyrinth.

 

You might want to play actual RTS before attempting to refute my maths. Here, have StarCraft II complete for €39,99. The base game with two expansions, with very long campaigns, balanced factions, good multiplayer, and a free arcade system. Tell me how that's a worse investment in any single way than 8-Bit Armies.
 

so if they're just shoveling junk into the content train, no one is going to buy the later bits.

 

They will. Petroglyph has a specific situation where their target audience are kids who think they are Westwood Studios reincarnated (which they very much aren't, even when looking at their staff roster). They'll buy anything with their badge.

Edited by Plokite_Wolf, 18 December 2016 - 01:35 PM.

[Pasidon]

Well, I don't have to play anything to be able to dispute fair content, but I think playing 20 years of playing C&C, Red Alert 1 & 2, Yuri's Revenge, Tiberium Wars, BFME 1 & 2, Dungeon Master, Starcraft, Warcraft 3, and God forbid, dozens of terrible off-brand RTS games on consoles would be enough experience.  I don't like 8-Bit Armies because the graphics are an eyesore and the unit designs are completely uninspired, but the gameplay is very rewarding.  It certainly doesn't redefine the genera, but each bit of content adds a very generous amount of missions that introduce different mechanics and units that keep it diverse for every expansion.  

 

If you want to compare it to Starcraft 2, that's a game that released for 50 dollars and only had about 30 missions (the first one had way more), and had 2 expansions that individually released for 30 dollars (that's about 100 bucks at the end of that labyrinth of math).  Sure, it's about 60 dollars all together now, but some of that content is nearly 7 years old.  We're talking about 8-Bit, which isn't even cold off the shelves yet, giving way more missions (even co-op ones just like Starcraft) for less than half the price of the original releases of Starcraft's content, and I guarantee a full 8-bit package with all the expansions will soon be out and on sale just the same. I'm not seeing what's unfair here.  

[Plokite_Wolf]

but the gameplay is very rewarding.

 

It "tries" to be like RA2 (without the soul and effort put into it), but manages to outspam even the spammiest multiplayer matches where nothing but Rhino Tanks are used. How is that rewarding, even compared to a game from 16 freakin' years ago?
 

If you want to compare it to Starcraft 2, that's a game that released for 50 dollars and only had about 30 missions (the first one had way more)

 

Even if its price stood still, of Wings of Liberty ALONE, it'd have been a better investment. Its missions actually follow a story, which Petro willingly avoided and literally marketed that as a good thing. Instead, they went for many boring unconnected skirmishes taht are branded as a "campaign".
 

I'm not seeing what's unfair here.

 

If you actually played all those RTS games you numbered, you would've seen it, and found them a better use of time and money than this poor cash cow. Unless, of course, this is just another one of your attempts at trolling.

Edited by Plokite_Wolf, 18 December 2016 - 08:27 PM.

[Pasidon]

Yes, I'm an infamous troll of the online internet.  ... No.  If you're whole dispute is just claiming that there's better things to invest in around the same genera, then you can argue the point of any game.  Why would I buy Arkham Knight when Mad Max is better?  Or what's the point of Sneak King, an actual good, free game you can get any any Burger King in 2006, when I can just play Metal Gear Solid 3: Snake Eater for 60 dollars?  I agree that having a game with an actual good story will always be better than one without any plot at all, which is unfortunately just our opinion and not law, but this is a discussion about fair amounts of gameplay and content, in which, story is not required at all if the price matches the entertaining hours you'll get from it.  

 

Over a hundred missions, tons of unit varieties, lots of maps, a pretty darn good AI along with diverse strategies that allows you to play the game in multiple ways... how much more do you need?  I'll remind you no one here disputed Grey Goo when it came out, and it was just as expensive with barely even a fraction of the content 8-Bit Armies provides.

[Plokite_Wolf]

but this is a discussion about fair amounts of gameplay and content, in which, story is not required at all if the price matches the entertaining hours you'll get from it.

Are they truly entertaining hours to you, and if so... how/why? And if so, how can anyone who says that be taken seriously when you can get a better alternative for a slightly higher or an insanely lower price nowadays? Endless Legend was an indie game (but Amplitude was bought by SEGA earlier this year) with a lower price tag than its AAA equivalents, and had the balls to be a quality product and even *gasp* INNOVATE. That's how indies and spiritual successors need to be, that's how you deploy games at release.
 

diverse strategies that allows you to play the game in multiple ways

Spamfests?
 

I'll remind you no one here disputed Grey Goo when it came out

That's sad.

Edited by Plokite_Wolf, 18 December 2016 - 09:06 PM.

[Pasidon]

It's entertaining because some folks actually enjoy RTS puzzles, since that's essentially what they are.  Forget the terrible graphic style and the terrible, cold grip of capitalism and you just have a simple RTS game with over 100 missions that aren't slowed down by story.  Hashtag appealing, hashtag modern audiences.  Which comes back around to why it makes no sense to think the price is unfair since it has plenty of content that people are actually enjoying.  And you can keep calling it spammy - I'm not debating if it's a good RTS game at all.  I mentioned it has all the components of an RTS title (unit variety, factions, maps, AI, free strategy), and it's rewarding to complete all of the missions and challenge yourself, which is all the conclusion I need to be assured that the price is 100% reasonable compared to other RTS games.

 

And didn't Endless Legend have have half a dozen expansions that did essentially the same thing as 8-Bit Armies?  Well... I did phrase that as a question, though that's exactly what they did. It's like 80 bucks for all the Endless Legend content.  If you're mentioning it because it's a better game than 8-Bit Armies, then well done.  We could mention many other games that are better as well, but that still wouldn't break the point that it has enough content to justify the price.  

[Plokite_Wolf]

and you just have a simple RTS game with over 100 missions that aren't slowed down by story.

 

Are you a Petroglyph employee???
 

since it has plenty of content that people are actually enjoying.

 
Your definition of "plenty" does not seem to be the same one from the dictionary.
 

I mentioned it has all the components of an RTS title (unit variety, factions, maps, AI, free strategy)

 

That approach is made by kids who go to Steam Greenlight saying "I'm gonna make an FPS which will have everything an FPS has (health bar, weapons, enemies to shoot at...), and end up with this sort of thing.
 

And didn't Endless Legend have have half a dozen expansions that did essentially the same thing as 8-Bit Armies?

 

Yes on the expansion part, no on the same thing part. The Endless Legend expansions brought new mechanics alongside new factions, such as espionage in Shadows.

Also, I don't know if you noticed, but unlike 8-Bit Armies, Endless Legend was a full game at release, without (as much) content blatantly missing.
 

but that still wouldn't break the point that it has enough content to justify the price.

 

So, to sum it up, you say 8-Bit X has a justified price, which is currently steeper than the classic RTS titles that it's "borrowing gameplay from", just because you can storm through an unconnected campaign by whacking unit production buttons aimlessly?

[Pasidon]

A game's price isn't unfair just because you don't like it.