5127 replies to this topic

[John Carver]

Sure. No problem. I'll wait. Sorry.

[CrimsonRaider]

Elite double barreled opus custom tank does not have the muzzle flash and sound like the others have.

[Speeder]

Wow, good catch.

[PACER]

Wow, good catch.

 

Spoke of months ago, never taken into account :/

Edited by PACER, 16 December 2018 - 06:41 AM.

[Speeder]

Yeah, I didn't see it. As I said before, not much time - I'll re-read everything when I can.

[Attenpeter]

Scorpion cell really could need some late game (except for the now OP Tyrant) i propose give it a Duplication Facility like the one in RR for Libya  

For anyone not familiar with the one in RR it works like a cloning bay for tanks gives you double tanks for a 50% price increase.

It could look lake a mix between Russian stalins fist and improvised epsilon tec.

 

It would fit SC really nice because one of the loading screen info “scorpion cell overruns the enemy with sheer numbers” and according of the wiki one of the main tactics is “Numerical superiority”

SC would also of all factions the best units unit roster for it: except tyrants who need a nerv anyway, everything just looks cheaply made (mantis Gatling oxidizer plagues splatter, speeder).

maybe plague splatter would need a small price increase if its gets implemented not sure

I also don’t think Basilisk or other main epsilon army units would become op with the reduced price of the Duplication Facility. The only argument against it could see its its basically the same thing from another mod.

 

Also +1 for the idea to make bloatick trap not instant, some time to react would be nice.

 

Ps give heroes a more reasonable price and build time

[Handepsilon]

If I remember correctly, Speeder doesn't like the idea of tank cloning, which is a bit of a shame. Scorpion Cell swarming would shine well with it.

[Divine]

I absolutely adore this idea.

[Petya]

Bloatick Trap isn't instant, it is delayed, but the effect is hard to notice, so it is easy to miss. If it's really that hard to miss, then please tell, because we could consider making it more obvious.

 

As for Factory Cloning, it has been discussed and while there is a slim possibility for such in the future, it has its own counter-arguements, which one should consider (henceforth don't be surprised if it will never happen):

• It would require an introduction of new sub-factions, because currently it doesn't fit any factions. It doesn't fit the Soviets at all, because Industrial Plant + This = super-duper OP. It would only fit Scorpion Cell, if it were unique counterpart to the normal Cloning Vats, because Cloning Vats + This = Spam Spam Spam, furthermore Scorpion Cell has something behind the curtains currently, which might or might not see release, so at the moment SC getting such is almost out of the question.
• It has its conflicting nature with the Meteor Shower AI, because Meteor Shower AI has enabled factory duplication.
• The idea was never scrapped entirely, but it isn't as unique as one would think: it's basically a different implementation of the cloning feature. At one point Foehn was supposed to get it, but it was just basically Epsilon cloning just with vehicles, so it wasn't so unique and it was rejected as a Foehn eco structure.

[Handepsilon]

Yes the trap is delayed. It's just not delayed enough to be able to move infantries away before the bugs appear.

Oh God, Foehn vehicle cloning. That's the last thing we'd need after the whole Memelodon and Ptera spam shenanigans

[TerumasaReal]

Just because it's build-limited does not mean it's an epic unit. It's a tool that you only have a limited amount of to use, like the Stalin's Fist, Iron Guard etc. You'll get two of this one tops.

Wait, may I ask that does it mean that the limit of Stalin's Fist will be changed to 2 in 3.3.5? Sorry for my another disturbance.

[CLAlstar]

No. Iron Guard already has the "build limit of 2" here.

[Attenpeter]

• It would require an introduction of new sub-factions, because currently it doesn't fit any factions. It doesn't fit the Soviets at all, because Industrial Plant + This = super-duper OP. It would only fit Scorpion Cell, if it were unique counterpart to the normal Cloning Vats, because Cloning Vats + This = Spam Spam Spam, furthermore Scorpion Cell has something behind the curtains currently, which might or might not see release, so at the moment SC getting such is almost out of the question.

I know it would be op for the soviets, but it should be fine for the SC because it would no be an eco booster like the cloning vat, so no extra income and you get the 50% price increase on top for tanks so it would after all only an effective 25 % price reduction. If it gets implemented SC should have both, especially Epsilon because infantry seems to be balanced around the cloning vet.

I hope the stuff behind the curtain is something to counter t3 tanks (Tesla, Abrams) which lacks SC the most.

• It has its conflicting nature with the Meteor Shower AI, because Meteor Shower AI has enabled factory duplication.

i guess you mean mental omega AI boost. I check it in RR and there doesn't seem to be any problem with the RR version of it, the AI build just fine with it with AI boost on. If that not reproduce able is it possible to make SC AI just built and additional WF? that should have the same effect because AI cheats on money 

• The idea was never scrapped entirely, but it isn't as unique as one would think: it's basically a different implementation of the cloning feature. At one point Foehn was supposed to get it, but it was just basically Epsilon cloning just with vehicles, so it wasn't so unique and it was rejected as a Foehn eco structure.

So it would not even be a straight copy out off RR if there were some trys to make one for Fhoen nice. Also i would imagine Fhoen tanks with it would be broken as hell double mastodons / roadrunners / Megalodons 

 

Bloatick Trap isn't instant, it is delayed, but the effect is hard to notice, so it is easy to miss. If it's really that hard to miss, then please tell, because we could consider making it more obvious.

 

Yeah i know it is not instant, i chosed the wrong wording, you should get at least enough time to walk away with you infantry if you hear the spawning noise.

[Polaris Starnor]

I would argue there isn’t enough time to save your infantry from a bloatik trap unless it’s fast like Libra.

[Petya]

Slow Infantries might suffer casualties against Bloatick Trap, but fast infantries usually evade it unless caught off-guard.

 

Everyone should stop saying that ,,this feature is copied from RR'', because it's not true. Many features of RR, which are claimed to be copied by other mods, aren't even as unique and usually such claims lack the information to back it up. Grumble isn't an RR invention either, it's a real life military vehicle.

 

The vehicle cloning for Foehn was an idea before its creation, so everyone knew well how broken Foehn would be with vehicle cloning.

 

As for the Meteor Shower/Mental AI boost (I use the term of Meteor Shower sometimes, because it was called that for a long time and I'm just used to that term): the problem isn't technical, but it would be a gameplay inconsistency. Barracks cloning is disabled, because of the existence of Cloning Vats. If vehicle cloning was such feature, it would be required to disable that as well. Which of course would need a lot of adjustments to keep up its difficult nature.

 

Infantry Cloning + Vehicle Cloning for one faction would be really difficult to balance properly. Scorpion Cell units already produce fast and are cheap, if you increase unit prices, you will nerf its strong early game power in exhange for some late game power for a faction, which starts falling off after midgame anyway.

[TerumasaReal]

No. Iron Guard already has the "build limit of 2" here.

Looks like I misunderstood again, sorry about that.

[Thesilver]

Bloatick is casted in half a second, this isnt a moba. You know what happens in half a second? You place a completed structure, you tell a miner to mine somewhere else. Demanding you to look at your main army every half second in an RTS is a ridicilous demand since in a matchup you are required to do far more than babysit just one group of units. This isn't a moba, in a moba you control 1 guy so half second dodges are fine since you always look at this one guy. But in an RTS you absolutely need to telegraph that stuff better because you plain and simple are busy doing other things. One of the problems that dawn of war 3 had was too many click to destroy abilities on its heroes which technically had a telegraph, you just had to look at your army every second while also building a base and other units. What im saying is you are forced to multitask in an RTS, and as a result bloatick isn't feasible dodgeable in the vast majority of situations.

[Petya]

In MOBA you are going to concentrate on 9 other people as well in a 5v5 match: your teammates + opponents. It's a support power which was supposed to hurt clustered infantries. It is usually rather obvious where the player is going to use it, so with good macro knowledge bloatick trap can become predictable. As a result if it had bigger delay, it would render the support power bad.

[Attenpeter]

Slow Infantries might suffer casualties against Bloatick Trap, but fast infantries usually evade it unless caught off-guard. 

 

Even if fast infantry can evade most infantry simply cant in the game right now this gets exponentially worse the bigger the infantry blob is, lets just look at this example 

https://youtu.be/wBaFTBPqEjQ?t=475 even if the HQ player would have perfectly spit his forced he would had lost many units because Bloatick are faster than most infantry, which is fine they would be useless without the speed. In order to nearly completely evade the dmg of the trap he would have to split in at least 2 different directions which require a lot of actions in an extreme short time Frame (select the units, give the move order, have some units shoot the Bloatics so they just run into you) which is not really possible if you don´t have the reflexes of a god.

There is now definitely not enough time to react fast enough and don`t get me even started on Alied infantry blob which require deploy to be effective.

 

It is usually rather obvious where the player is going to use it, so with good macro knowledge bloatick trap can become predictable

 

It its predictable Where the enemy its going to use it but even if you know its still now really doge-able also you cant watch you infantry all the time just because the enemy is SC, you have to place buildings some time watch, for drillers, check your miners because malver .... 

 

Infantry Cloning + Vehicle Cloning for one faction would be really difficult to balance properly. Scorpion Cell units already produce fast and are cheap, if you increase unit prices, you will nerf its strong early game power in exhange for some late game power for a faction, which starts falling off after midgame anyway.

 

My proposal don´t takes any early game power away from SC if you read correctly the price increase come only if you have the Duplication Facility which would be t3 anyway.

At which unit do you Fear would break the power balance of SC in late game with the Duplication Facility on t3 do you fear speeders or mantis tanks or speeders would be terrible op with a 25 % discount that still doesn't seem to be worse than fighting against cata, tesla-cruisers spam. (tyrants need an adjustment anyway)

[Divine]

I'd also add that support powers that summon units or buildings without the possibility of stopping the delivery should have a range similarly to Knightfall Protocol to prevent them from being summoned in the middle of an enemy base. That includes Bloatick Trap, Motor Ambush, Risen Inferno, etc.