Jump to content


Photo

[Suggestion] Mental Omega in SAGE Engine


  • Please log in to reply
23 replies to this topic

#1 Arcadian

Arcadian
  • Members
  • 15 posts

Posted 21 December 2016 - 07:05 PM

(I ALSO POSTED THE SAME SUGGESTION IN THE MODDB PAGE AS ThaneWulfgharn)
 
In the light of this wonderful new update, I would like to ask you if you ever thought to port Mental Omega to C&C3:TW? 
 
I know this would be against your idea to improve the classic Red Alert YR game(making an Almost Perfect Yuri's Revenge), but there would be many gameplay-wise advantages to such a choice.
 
First of all, the possibility to have up to special abilities for units, you can make them switch weapons, modes, use special abilities through the bottom-right menu. You can also research upgrades for your units at the specific tech buildings. Imagine the Foehn units receiving manually their Nanofiber upgrades(not through a special power) or issuing weapon and armor upgrades for your GI-s / Conscripts or Initiates switching between various mental powers to use in the battlefield.
 
Second, squad based combat for infantry offers a more realistic approach to warfare in the Infantry/Vehicle rapport. Not only, vehicles and aircraft could be distinct (as they should - this in favor to more aircraft in game). Furthermore, one can produce from many structures of the same type at the same time, thus giving a more realistic strategic approach.
 
Third, I don't think there will be  lacking features from the Original Mental Omega. Naval combat can be implemented in C&C3 too (I remember a Naval Warfare mod some years ago for C&C3:TW though I can't seem to find it again). Furthermore, I think that the Tiberium Wars campaign can be edited, therefore the story you are telling through the Ares engine can be told (and maybe even better given the new engine's possibilities). Finally, new terrains can be added to C&C3:TW to simulate more and more rich,new and colorful environments.
 
Finally, graphically wise, (please hear me out to the end - I'm not trying to be one of those bothered-by-2D kids), the C&C3 Engine offers more advantages. The ability to rotate buildings or to properly plan walls (space management), the clearer distinction between ground and air units, and the ability to improve indefinitely the graphics of the original game (see the sadly  never released C&C:Renovatio mod) make the C&C3 engine a better option to revive Red Alert.
 
If this "porting" is done properly, with the right ideas, skills and dedications which your team possesses for sure, I believe it would be a proprer re-incarnation of the older game to a newer engine. In the recent years where video games are becoming more commercial and less atmospheric, I think you would make the deserved tribute to a wonderful game and idea.

Edited by Arcadian, 21 December 2016 - 07:05 PM.


#2 lovalmidas

lovalmidas

    Yunru Kanegawa. Go figure. Go mental.

  • Project Team
  • 1,192 posts
  • Location:Singapore
  • Projects:Mental Omega Almost Perfect Yunru's Revenge Version 3.0
  •  Why am I not in the Centurion?

Posted 21 December 2016 - 07:18 PM

Even if remotely possible. art assets, map scripts and missions would have to be remade. I do not know if all Ares features could be translated into equivalent functions on SAGE.

I myself have not mapped on the SAGE engine before.

 

It would be worthwhile to make a new mod with fresh ideas.


30m70ag.png

 

Mental Omega on the web:
fbbutton.png ytbutton.png mdbutton.png dsbutton.png
IRC: #menthosogma (Rizon)

 


#3 need my speed

need my speed

    For Soviet people!

  • Hosted
  • 1,290 posts
  • Location:European Union (Magna Batavia)

Posted 21 December 2016 - 08:10 PM

You can't just port SHP images, for example, into models. You'd have to remake the whole mod from scratch - that's literally years of work, I bet, even with dedicated graphic designers.


Please, if you see a mistake in my posts - spelling, grammar, punctuation, or whatever else - point it out. How can one learn from mistakes, if one is not corrected?
There is no wealth like knowledge, no poverty like ignorance.

#4 Graion Dilach

Graion Dilach

    Supérior Caliburwielder

  • Project Team
  • 2,187 posts
  • Location:Iszkaszentgyörgy, Hungary
  • Projects:Infinty Engine modding, OpenHV, Attacque Supérior (sometimes)
  •  That guy you keep hearing the stories about.

Posted 22 December 2016 - 02:53 AM

I heard ZH SAGE is less restrictive at modding than KW SAGE.

But yes, the assets cannot be ported. The whole thing would need to be remade from scratch. That's an even worse option than porting to OpenRA would mean - where atleast the assets can be carried over.

Edited by Graion Dilach, 22 December 2016 - 02:55 AM.

kuuHd4s.png6pDXsCS.png
n0J1wqE.pngIX8pBXZ.png

AS Discord server: https://discord.gg/7aM7Hm2

ComradeCrimson: AS is the product of Hungarian acid
ComradeCrimson: And magical hussars
Dutchygamer: and Weird Al.


#5 Schottkey 7th Path

Schottkey 7th Path
  • Members
  • 83 posts

Posted 22 December 2016 - 07:33 AM

Why? Isometric view has its own vintage charm to it. And RA 2 has vibrant colors. CnC3 is too grimy/grunge. also there is no way infantry being melted by Desolators would look halfway as good in 3D.


>>>>>>>> Unoffical compliation of upcoming features for the next MO Release https://forums.revor...-see/?p=1033314 <<<<<<<<


#6 Damfoos

Damfoos

    When world domination haven't cured the emptiness inside

  • Members
  • 870 posts
  • Location:Russia
  • Projects:Translation of various cool C&C mods.
  •  Mental Omega Russian Translator

Posted 22 December 2016 - 09:34 AM

also there is no way infantry being melted by Desolators would look halfway as good in 3D.


Ever played G:ZH mods ShockWave and Rise of the Reds? They have such animations, and I'd say they look quite nice.

#7 Arcadian

Arcadian
  • Members
  • 15 posts

Posted 22 December 2016 - 10:26 AM

I think that the Mental Omega team has 3D models for some (if not all) of the assets. Look at their renders:

 


#8 XoGamer

XoGamer

    Strategically Losing

  • Members
  • 122 posts
  • Location:Underground
  •  i won already

Posted 22 December 2016 - 11:21 AM

G:ZH doesn't support naval warfare so you can't do it there.
KW is (like Schottkey said) too grimy for RA2.
HOWEVER, the RA3 engine would also be an awesome idea (w/ or without protocols)

"I cast a deadly shadow." - Apocalypse


#9 X1Destroy

X1Destroy

    title available

  • Members
  • 660 posts
  • Location:Holy Terra

Posted 22 December 2016 - 11:30 AM

RA3 engine failed alots. Look at Paradox mod.


"Protecting the land of the Free."
efXH1rz.png
 


#10 Nooze

Nooze
  • Members
  • 51 posts
  • Location:Finland
  • Projects:Mental Omega
  •  Mental Architect

Posted 22 December 2016 - 01:20 PM

We do not have high quality 3d models for all of out assets. Not even close.

I made most of the custom building graphics for MO (including 98% Foehn structures) and none of their 3d models are functional for anything else other than rendering to 2d from very specific angle at specific distance.

I'd say everything would have to be made from scratch. Just saying~



#11 need my speed

need my speed

    For Soviet people!

  • Hosted
  • 1,290 posts
  • Location:European Union (Magna Batavia)

Posted 22 December 2016 - 02:24 PM

RA3 engine failed alots. Look at Paradox mod.

Could you expand upon that? How did it fail, and how did this cause Paradox to stop being developed?


Please, if you see a mistake in my posts - spelling, grammar, punctuation, or whatever else - point it out. How can one learn from mistakes, if one is not corrected?
There is no wealth like knowledge, no poverty like ignorance.

#12 X1Destroy

X1Destroy

    title available

  • Members
  • 660 posts
  • Location:Holy Terra

Posted 22 December 2016 - 02:53 PM

 

RA3 engine failed alots. Look at Paradox mod.

Could you expand upon that? How did it fail, and how did this cause Paradox to stop being developed?

 

http://www.moddb.com...x/news/realtalk

Basically RA3 version of SAGE is highly restricting and weird stuffs would happen with radical changes even if they are unrelated to each others. You can't really bring anything new to the game, your stuffs would have to use nothing more than the already available mechanics and anything sort of innovation is down right impossible,

MO used alots of the new logics from Ares, switching to RA3 would mean majority of the unit abilities, support powers have to disappear. And no, there is no way anyone can modify the engine except EA.


Edited by X1Destroy, 22 December 2016 - 03:00 PM.

"Protecting the land of the Free."
efXH1rz.png
 


#13 Arcadian

Arcadian
  • Members
  • 15 posts

Posted 22 December 2016 - 04:05 PM

Naval Combat can be simulated even in Generals ZH (there are some mods about that). The reason I don't like Generals' Engine is that it has poor graphics especially concerning special effects and particle systems, not to mention that the engine is a little old and slows down in big battles, unlike Tiberium Wars.

 

Yes, Tiberium Wars has a grim atmosphere, but as I said, it has an indefinite potential of being improved, ranging from graphics to Naval Combat (I remember one mod which had that - though I can't find it).

 

Just look at C&C Renovatio: http://www.moddb.com/mods/renovatio (which sadly never managed to be released)

It has better graphics than the original Tiberium Wars, in fact, its graphics are (at least at my point of view) better and more realistic even than those of Red Alert 3. The only doubtful question regarding TW engine is whether it does or does not support Particle Systems and Water Shader as good as RA 3 (but then again, these are quite minor details I don't want to be a graphics maniac).

 

Tiberium Wars also has a more similar support power system to the Red Alert 2 one than Generals or RA3. (And one of the bonuses TW offers is that you can easily use support Powers from the left bar and they're not affected by buildings being under construction).

 

On a final note, some modders have managed to use Battle for Middle-Earth II assets for Tiberium Wars and vice-versa (it appears the two engines have a lot in common, though the TW engine seems better in handling better graphics). Given that BfME2 has both naval combat and a decent water shader, we can suppose that probably pieces of code regarding Naval Combat can be transferred from BFME2 to Tiberium Wars.

Yes, Tiberium Wars has a grim atmosphere, but as I said, terrains/textures/atmosphere can be changed, and even Naval Combat can be simulated (I remember one mod which had that - though I can't find it). Tiberium Wars also has a more similar support power system to the Red Alert 2 one than Generals or RA3. (And one of the bonuses TW offers is that you can easily use support Powers from the left bar and they're not affected by buildings being under construction).

 



#14 Allied Commander ???

Allied Commander ???

    Tweaks INI and MIX files

  • Members
  • 192 posts
  • Location:Malaysia

Posted 22 December 2016 - 04:09 PM

C&C Generals' SAGE engine is more modding-friendly IMO.

#15 need my speed

need my speed

    For Soviet people!

  • Hosted
  • 1,290 posts
  • Location:European Union (Magna Batavia)

Posted 22 December 2016 - 06:08 PM

On a final note, some modders have managed to use Battle for Middle-Earth II assets for Tiberium Wars and vice-versa (it appears the two engines have a lot in common, though the TW engine seems better in handling better graphics). Given that BfME2 has both naval combat and a decent water shader, we can suppose that probably pieces of code regarding Naval Combat can be transferred from BFME2 to Tiberium Wars.

No, you really can not. There is a huge difference between graphical assets, coding language, and so forth.

 

It's not really relevant anyway, but still.

 

Thank you, X1Destroy. :)


Edited by need my speed, 22 December 2016 - 06:08 PM.

Please, if you see a mistake in my posts - spelling, grammar, punctuation, or whatever else - point it out. How can one learn from mistakes, if one is not corrected?
There is no wealth like knowledge, no poverty like ignorance.

#16 Arcadian

Arcadian
  • Members
  • 15 posts

Posted 22 December 2016 - 06:26 PM

 

On a final note, some modders have managed to use Battle for Middle-Earth II assets for Tiberium Wars and vice-versa (it appears the two engines have a lot in common, though the TW engine seems better in handling better graphics). Given that BfME2 has both naval combat and a decent water shader, we can suppose that probably pieces of code regarding Naval Combat can be transferred from BFME2 to Tiberium Wars.

No, you really can not. There is a huge difference between graphical assets, coding language, and so forth.

 

It's not really relevant anyway, but still.

 

Thank you, X1Destroy. :)

 

 

That is sad... Still, I do remember one naval warfare mod was for Tiberium Wars now it's no more.

 

 

C&C Generals' SAGE engine is more modding-friendly IMO.

 

Not quite... There is this mod Red Alert 3 (the mod was called like that because it was developed before RA3 came out) that tried to port original RA2 to Generals:ZH. Here: http://www.moddb.com/mods/red-alert-3

The Chronosphere, for example did not work exactly as in RA2 due to engine limitations and merely summoned an army out of nothing.

 

I really can't think of anything that Zero Hour SAGE can do better than Tiberium Wars SAGE. One of the best TW modders out there Madin, has, for example, scripted Point-Laser Defense Systems for APCs in his Tiberian History mod and has made so that Psychic Sensors can disrupt nearby missiles and guide Flame Towers in his Red Alert History mod.



#17 lovalmidas

lovalmidas

    Yunru Kanegawa. Go figure. Go mental.

  • Project Team
  • 1,192 posts
  • Location:Singapore
  • Projects:Mental Omega Almost Perfect Yunru's Revenge Version 3.0
  •  Why am I not in the Centurion?

Posted 23 December 2016 - 02:34 AM

There are already awesome mods out there using SAGE, try them out! :)

 

The greatest single limitation for a modder is the game engine which very few have the expertise to modify.

We have been very fortunate to have Ares (currently AlexB) to improve it.

 

Mental Omega stated out as a rules ini mod just like any other more than a decade ago (all the love for Speeder for sticking it out for more than a decade, woot!).

With NPatch, Speeder managed new capabilities, and new units, and got out a campaign in v2.0

With Ares, the mod has propelled itself to greater heights in v3.0 and v.3.3.0

The game engine extensions are critical.

 

The SAGE engine for each game (Generals / Tiberium Wars / RA3) is specially catered for each game. And unused code gets removed during optimisation because it is... not used. As a current entry-level programmer I would do the same purge. Chronosphere couldn't work on ZH SAGE because there was no intention by the devs to do it. 

 

There is the same "complaint" seen between Tiberian Sun and Red Alert 2. Firestorm, hunter seeker, fog of war were not present / not working / overwritten in RA2.

 

It is easy to forget that Mental Omega in its core is a game modification project. If there is something we like that is not present in the game, we will have to make it ourselves. It is not going to be possible re-creating MO like a rules ini mod. I believe many mods gave up or became stagnant because they hit a brick wall somewhere - you could change all the art and music and sounds, recode all the missions, and repurpose all the existing logic, but you are always stuck with the same engine limitations.

 

So we should also look to see if an equivalent NPatch / Ares project exists for the SAGE, and whether those projects are still active.

 

How many years did it take to recreate the money scavenging logic in Scavenger of 2.0 fame? How long did it take to recreate the Firestorm wall logic of TS fame? How long did it take to make flying carriers work as they were introduced in NPatch?

Maybe not much be themselves, but they build up quickly.

 

How long did other projects like OpenRA take to recreate CnC and RA1 (Kudos to them for assembling a huge team to work on it)? Keep in mind that OpenRA keeps most of the visible aspects of CnC and RA1 unchanged; their main work is the game engine.

OpenRA has some support from different CnC communities to perform their magic (I know that Gruntlord, who I had kept in touch with for... like seven days... had been helping out in the Dune 2000 area)

 

That can provide an indication on the effort needed to make this work.

 

Porting a game to another engine will definitely be a significant undertaking.


Edited by lovalmidas, 23 December 2016 - 02:38 AM.

30m70ag.png

 

Mental Omega on the web:
fbbutton.png ytbutton.png mdbutton.png dsbutton.png
IRC: #menthosogma (Rizon)

 


#18 Solais

Solais

    Conspiracy Theorist

  • Members
  • 1,648 posts

Posted 23 December 2016 - 02:42 AM

There's a reason why I almost always refer to MO as a game, not a mod. :p

 

Though, when comes to purging old code from the engine, that really is just the easiest, and laziest method. I'm no coder myself, but while maintaining old code definitely takes a lot of time and resources, especially in the long run, I think it's still important to have them at least partially maintained so it won't bite you in the back years later when you'd actually need to use that old code, even if for the basis for something. Kinda speaking from work related experience here that I cannot elaborate on, just really an advice if you were to work on engine code in the future. :p



#19 lovalmidas

lovalmidas

    Yunru Kanegawa. Go figure. Go mental.

  • Project Team
  • 1,192 posts
  • Location:Singapore
  • Projects:Mental Omega Almost Perfect Yunru's Revenge Version 3.0
  •  Why am I not in the Centurion?

Posted 23 December 2016 - 02:57 AM

WW and EA have no intention of using Chronosphere logic in Zero Hour. They have little interest to put in old code so that other people can use them. Hell, they would even override old unused code when it comes to changing TS -> RA2 -> YR!

 

Looking at my workplace, I see this situation

 - My technical manager has a major product that contains modular code A, B, C, D, E, F, G...

 - Customer 1 wants a solution requiring A, B, C.

 - Technical manager provides product with D onwards removed.

 - Customer 2 wants a solution requiring A, B, D, E

 - Technical manager provides product with C, F, G removed.

 

What I see in WW looks like

 - C&C has code A, B, C

 - RA1 has code A, B, C, D, E

 - TS has code A, B+, C, D, E, F, G.

 - RA2 has code A%, B@, C&, D!, E, F, G

 - YR is RA2 with extra special cases and code plasters all around

- Generals has enough of the monster that is called legacy code.

 

And that is assuming WW's programmers have the same level of competency as my technical manager. To him, many ex-game programmers turned out to be n00bs with poor code structure and code maintenance.


Edited by lovalmidas, 23 December 2016 - 03:06 AM.

30m70ag.png

 

Mental Omega on the web:
fbbutton.png ytbutton.png mdbutton.png dsbutton.png
IRC: #menthosogma (Rizon)

 


#20 Allied Commander ???

Allied Commander ???

    Tweaks INI and MIX files

  • Members
  • 192 posts
  • Location:Malaysia

Posted 23 December 2016 - 05:51 AM

Can Ares make MIRV mechanism possible? I remember how ROTR had Topol-Ms that launch powerful nuclear MIRV... If Ares can maybe the Peacekeeper missiles or MIDAS missiles can give us the cool effect.




0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users