376 replies to this topic

[NorthFireZ]

See previous post.

[TeslaCruiser]

- nerf: Foxtrot damage vs structures has been halved
This is a proper Nerf to foxtrots
The major issue with them was always its ability to kill structures; in 3.3 using 3 or 4 jets (some power plants, tech access buildings, barracks) and even the current foxtrot can destroy some structures using only 4, nonetheless, it is not reliable.
The problem is still there to some degree and can definitely kill structures with enough airbases.
Now in the transition from 3.3 to 3.3.3 we got tweaks to damage per missile and missile precision in an attempt to nerf its ability to kill structures by nerfing its general power.
Since 3.3.3 foxtrot is properly balanced against structures, how about making the jet more reliable against units again? by improving its precision or its damage a bit? ATM this jet is quite bad against light armored units and due to its 'splash' and missile randomness, the only good targets are infantry groups/hero snipe.

[NorthFireZ]

Doesn’t foxtrots have the best anti infantry mob capability out of all of the Jets while other flyers do perform anti armor roles better? Isn’t the foxtrot the only jet to have a good aoe damage? (I’m saying damage since some other jets have utility aoes and a certain Evolver is technically a bomber. The Beagle’s aoe is kind of finicky and really only works on one small spot.) Couldnt the Foxtrot overperform over its Allied and Epsilon counterparts if it is allowed to have percise strike powers, an decent aoe, and a passive burn? Is light armor like IFVs, Flak tracks, or Gatling tanks even a serious problem to Foxtrot performance? How much of a $50 dollar change does the Foxtrot need for its stat buff? What are the advantages would buffing the Foxtrot bring to the Soviet faction? What are the specific changes that you will request?

AND would anyone think decreasing the time to fire on Rocketeers by 50 or 25% help them perform according to their price?

Edited by NorthFireZ, 24 January 2018 - 04:04 AM.

[Flandre]

I’m just going to leave this here.

This is a terrible tactical usage of this guys.

[doctormedic]

I find it fascinating how the air factions always seem to have the best aa (usa,coronia)

 

china and epsilon not withstanding.

[Handepsilon]

Guns are too modern for my taste anyways

[TeslaCruiser]

Doesn’t foxtrots have the best anti infantry mob capability out of all of the Jets while other flyers do perform anti armor roles better? Isn’t the foxtrot the only jet to have a good aoe damage? (I’m saying damage since some other jets have utility aoes and a certain Evolver is technically a bomber. The Beagle’s aoe is kind of finicky and really only works on one small spot.) Couldnt the Foxtrot overperform over its Allied and Epsilon counterparts if it is allowed to have percise strike powers, an decent aoe, and a passive burn? Is light armor like IFVs, Flak tracks, or Gatling tanks even a serious problem to Foxtrot performance? How much of a $50 dollar change does the Foxtrot need for its stat buff? What are the advantages would buffing the Foxtrot bring to the Soviet faction? What are the specific changes that you will request?

AND would anyone think decreasing the time to fire on Rocketeers by 50 or 25% help them perform according to their price?

Thanks for the questions, helps me to elaborate.
Yes,  foxtrot have the best anti infantry mob capability
I don't think it is the only good AoE jet since Stormchill and BE can both kill infantry in a small decent area.
Please notice I'm not asking for a better anti-armor than other jets, there is a long way between what the current foxtrot do against armor and what Allied and D-A can do.
Now, light armored units can be a problem because how foxtrot's missile works. It is not reliable.
About the balance equation, do some quick maths:
You have this two ways to balance a jet, both works separately. You use them both.
Now the most important question; " What are the advantages would buffing the Foxtrot bring to the Soviet faction?"
I've always considered this jet as a compensation for lack of range. At least early game.
Soviets struggle trying to kill fast and light armored units early, and lack of range weapons can turn engagements in a very awkward situation.
Sure, when you go all-in and fight inside enemy bases, the range isn't that important. But that choose is not always yours to do.

"What are the specific changes that you will request?"
I'm requesting a change to its direct damage, an improvement specifically. You can do this by increasing its damage per missile or missile precision.
If I have to pick one, would recommend moving random targeting accuracy from 0.35 to 0.5

 

And yes, a RoF buff would make rocketters better... My own suggestion was to give them auto-heal.

Edited by TeslaCruiser, 24 January 2018 - 12:12 PM.

[TeslaCruiser]

 

TBH i feel like foehn turned into the unbalancable "oh lets put all the cool ares features in 1 faction" faction. I dont mean to insult anyone, and I'm very happy with the mod for the most part, but i refuse to really get into this mod while coronia is still in it current state.
 

Yeah, about Ares features, oversaturation, "fun" over balance, pain.

 

The most notable case is blasticade, which happens to be unpractical enough to not see MP use at all.

[Death_Kitty]

Speeder or anyone, may I ask what the balance goals were for this patch? Obviously nerfing aircraft VS tech was one of them, and increasing IFV usage another, but what were the others? Were you guys targeting specific units, or trying for broader changes, like making t3 infantry more viable for allies? A response here could really shape my feedback.

[Destroyencio]

Now in the transition from 3.3 to 3.3.3 we got tweaks to damage per missile and missile precision in an attempt to nerf its ability to kill structures by nerfing its general power.
Since 3.3.3 foxtrot is properly balanced against structures, how about making the jet more reliable against units again? by improving its precision or its damage a bit? ATM this jet is quite bad against light armored units and due to its 'splash' and missile randomness, the only good targets are infantry groups/hero snipe.

 

I don't think Foxtrots need a buff against armor. Their usage is much better for area denial than attacking tanks/light vehicles (altho they still do decent damage towards them). 

Besides that, once you get Industrial Plant is quite easy to mass them, not to mention how "easy" is for them to survive thanks to a Dustdevil. I usually get 2 airfields with Soviets easily and I don't think they need to be improved imo.

[Divine]

IIRC in Tiberian Sun, the FIrestorm Wall was depleting two ways: once activated, it had a limited time to stay on, and every bit of damage absorbed by the firestorm shield shortened this time further. A notable exaple is that a firestorm wall could stop a Hunter-Seeker drone, but would be shorted out instantly.

 

Blasticade could be made viable if it did not have a limited time to stay on, and instead, only the damage it absors would consume its charge.

 

Another thing that could make Blasticade, and walls in general more viable, is if they could be built on slopes.

[StolenTech]

walls on slopes look awful, just try to connect some in the map editor and see how they'll look (I'm taking about vanilla map editor, you don't even need MO one to see that).

Blasticade under-usage is just bound to players and how they use what they have, why should I get a blasticade that drains power, and trenches that take time and still also drain power, when I can get an unkillable death machine for 3k or a weapon of mass destruction on wheels. I have seen blasticades used in some niche situations to some effect, but foehn just suffers heavily from being so bloated imo.

Haihead for example has so many cool units to choose from, but people(and I am speaking in general here, I know some actual haihead players don't fall into this category) will only use megalodons, FinAlize and MADMAN. Why ? because you don't need anything else, why should I pay for a suicidal unit that can't kill a T3 tank on it's own when I can pay for one that can delete an entire army, or get ranged infantry deleters that also happen to damage buildings very well when I can just bring in Megalodons with Megashield that will insta-kill blobs of infantry and march through them while taking minimal damage, shred tanks and buildings alike in mere seconds. or why should I use syncronins/syncronauts when half of my arsenal already kills buildings in mere seconds as previously stated.

this is the problem that needs to be fixed with foehn, they have so many things that overlap and some are better than others, and instead of making each useful in their own right under-used things are getting unnecessary buffs like Eureka(she can actually survive 4 jets unlike most heroes, and still getting HP buffed ?), who in my experience in 3.3.2 was an amazing tank killer, same with Tarchias which I actually used to siege and even kill epic units and ward off Abrams hoards, but they just get overshadowed by the unkillable death blob that is the ptrenadons, why should I bother with anything that I have when I can just mass those and win with minimal effort (if you hadn't already guessed Coronia atm is just a point and click adventure).

[Divine]

When I said that walls should be buildable on slopes I meant that there should be new wall graphics for wall segments that are on slopes. Obviously, the ones that are made for flat ground would look awful, duh. I don't think it's currently possible tho, but maybe Ares can do something about it in the future.

 

You've got a point with the Blast Trench's energy usage, tho.

[mrvecz]

Walls could be.. alot tougher for sure, or atleast tougher vs explosions rather than direct attacks

[Death_Kitty]

What if you made the blasticade wall available at tier 1?

After you wall of your con yard with foehn, you can start prepping walls for the building immediately. Later in the game you are going to be microing your army, so you don't have the time to be wasting on fitting the walls to your base, which i think is the issue. Early in the game when you are just building your base with no army, this could be a good idea. Foehn bases can compact b/c signal inhibitor, so that's not a concern. It doesn't hurt balance b/c walls are useless without the blast furnace anyway

Edited by Death_Kitty, 24 January 2018 - 03:15 PM.

[mrvecz]

What if you made the blasticade wall available at tier 1?

After you wall of your con yard with foehn, you can start prepping walls for the building immediately. Later in the game you are going to be microing your army, so you don't have the time to be wasting on fitting the walls to your base, which i think is the issue. Early in the game when you are just building your base with no army, this could be a good idea. Foehn bases can compact b/c signal inhibitor, so that's not a concern. It doesn't hurt balance b/c walls are useless without the blast furnace anyway

 

Then someone lobs offensive support power to your base and either damages them or outright destroys them,deleting your effort in a flash and you cannot do anything against it until you get signal inhibitors.

 

tbh in early game i would rather spend time making turrets instead of walls, maybe if walls were like 3-5 times as tough then they might become a less tedious base defence supplement.

[PACER]

 

What if you made the blasticade wall available at tier 1?

After you wall of your con yard with foehn, you can start prepping walls for the building immediately. Later in the game you are going to be microing your army, so you don't have the time to be wasting on fitting the walls to your base, which i think is the issue. Early in the game when you are just building your base with no army, this could be a good idea. Foehn bases can compact b/c signal inhibitor, so that's not a concern. It doesn't hurt balance b/c walls are useless without the blast furnace anyway

 

Then someone lobs offensive support power to your base and either damages them or outright destroys them,deleting your effort in a flash and you cannot do anything against it until you get signal inhibitors.

 

tbh in early game i would rather spend time making turrets instead of walls, maybe if walls were like 3-5 times as tough then they might become a less tedious base defence supplement.

 

 

The only offensive power capable of deleting large sections of walls is the Wallbuster (ironic....), but doing so on its first shot is both a waste of money and a waste of cooldown (since it'll still be devastating against most towers in 3.3.3). By the time of the second shot you should already have operational inhibitors.

 

Let's put the walls in ra3 into consideration. One section takes 5 seconds / $10 to build (while a t1 tower costs 20 seconds / 800$) and has a HP pool comparable to a MBT. I admit they're a little bit over-used, but the current ones in MO is just laughable considering the various types of jets and support powers in game. When playing as Coronia, I'd even prefer walling up the Piercer with base buildings in order to counter infiltration attempts.

[Handepsilon]

You do realize that walls prevent most shots from hitting the building right? Something buildings can't do?

[PACER]

You do realize that walls prevent most shots from hitting the building right? Something buildings can't do?

 

In the case of coronia, I'd rather Epsilon tyrants & drillers destroy my piercer outright than putting some infiltrators inside.

As other foehn subfactions, I simply sell the piercer to prevent infiltration from the beginning

Edited by PACER, 24 January 2018 - 04:19 PM.

[Solais]

I still think that the Blasticade should be just replaced by something else (only remaining as a special thing for Last Bastion), because it really seems to be useless and underused. I remember dropping an idea for Megaarena being made into a support superweapon for the whole Foehn and for all units.