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The problems with MBTs and why they suck.


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#1 JackoDerp

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Posted 16 July 2018 - 02:05 PM

Main Battle Tanks. The bread-and-butter of any army in any RTS game.
And why they have absolutely no use in MO.

Now, I don't want MO to turn back into RA2 again, that would be the wrong way to take this, but in their current state they offer such poor uses and are often lacklustre against things they are supposed to be killing.
Not to also mention that the mod is designed to be played almost instantly at T3, and MBTs have no effect on anything in that stage of the game, and very limited use early on. Giving you a 1 minute window (realistically) to do anything with them.

Main Battle Tanks by name are supposed to be somewhat tanky and deal respectable damage to armour. They have neither of these qualities.

At T1 the only thing you can hunt with MBTs are light support units (but almost none of these are ever made) and Harvesters (Which other than Minermites are so ridiculously tanky that it doesn't matter), and other MBTs.
Come midgame their uses diminish further as increased anti-armour options begin to appear and theres even more units around that annihilate MBTs. Jets (Allies & Soviets), Better Tanks (Epsilon & Allies) start appearing in the masses.

Once T3 hits, MBT influence is zero. T3 vehicles decimate their T1 anti-armour counterparts without so much as a scratch, and at not much greater cost. So RIP Scorpion Cell who don't even have a T3 anti-armour.
Even SEAL IFVs do more anti-armour damage than some MBTs.

Let me go through them all in more detail:

Spoiler



Foehn have it the worst, their MBTs are either slow, or do crap damage. But all factions can easily deal with any number of MBTs from mid-game onwards.
Ultimately I think the problem is the vast vast difference in power between T1/T2 units and T3 units, and that they are completely non-cost-effective. Plopping defences down or a simple infantry blob (or going against a faction with a better MBT/Anti-armour) renders MBTs useless in combat very quickly at low costs.

Discuss.

Edited by JackoDerp, 16 July 2018 - 02:14 PM.

Everyone seems to be arguing over how Yunru came into such a position of power,

yet nobody is willing to explain how Rahn's weapon is able to teleport a pair of shorts.

 

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#2 PACER

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Posted 16 July 2018 - 04:00 PM

MBTs are more like infantry support tanks rather than the cavalry tanks in RA2. Due to the awful versus-infantry scalar, they MUST be mixed with other anti-infantry units. Offensively, they're quite useless lest helping you taking out some well=placed pillboxes. Defensively, the MBTs are only meant to help you reach T2 or T3, but you need them nonetheless.

 

Foehn MBTs are not that bad. Their 30/20 firepower is almost on par with others. Considering their OP infantry, having subpar MBTs is not really unacceptable.

 

A group of 4-5 Cyclops knocks off a conyard in 10 seconds.

 

I personally can live with a slight versus-infantry scalar buff, but not as much as in RA2.


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#3 StolenTech

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Posted 16 July 2018 - 04:49 PM

Foehn tanks are half tanks and the other half is in their infantry :p



#4 Divine

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Posted 16 July 2018 - 07:56 PM

I think the reason of the MBT's perceived uselessness that as OP says anything above tier 2 outclasses them, but tier 2 can be reached rather quickly. This makes MBT's a rather bad investment. Not saying of corse that occasionally they can't get the job done, but comparing them to for example tier 1 anti-armor infantry or something like the various IFV's the Allies have, it becomes obvious that there is a very noticable lack of flexibility on the part of tier 1 tanks. I don't think they can be made more viable without becoming too powerful without rebalancing the entire mod.


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#5 Nox667

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Posted 16 July 2018 - 10:34 PM

jacko pretty much hit it on point: most mbts are just not worth getting due to how massively outclassed they get by higher tech units. easiest way to remedy this situation is making getting higher tech more difficult(more expensive/time consuming), thus prolonging the timeframe during which the tier 1 units in general will find use. this raises other issues unfortunately, namely soviets lack of tier 1 power compared to the other factions, or (maybe) an unnecessary prolonging of the game length in general, as breaking trhough defenses without the higher tech is a chore in and by itself :s
 


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#6 Drezalnor

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Posted 17 July 2018 - 02:40 AM

MBTs are more like infantry support tanks rather than the cavalry tanks in RA2. Due to the awful versus-infantry scalar, they MUST be mixed with other anti-infantry units. Offensively, they're quite useless lest helping you taking out some well=placed pillboxes. Defensively, the MBTs are only meant to help you reach T2 or T3, but you need them nonetheless.
 
Foehn MBTs are not that bad. Their 30/20 firepower is almost on par with others. Considering their OP infantry, having subpar MBTs is not really unacceptable.
 
A group of 4-5 Cyclops knocks off a conyard in 10 seconds.
 
I personally can live with a slight versus-infantry scalar buff, but not as much as in RA2.

You do have a point.MBTs are not exactly meant to be GPCVs(General Purpose Combat Vehicles),rather in MO,they have been visualized as more of a ISV(Infantry Support Vehicle).From an offensive perspective,they are more like cannon fodder,to help in cleaning out stuff,not do it on their own steam.From a defensive POV,they could help you buy time for going up the tech tree,but that's about it.

Faction-wise,however,Soviet MBTs are damn tanky with decent damage,however,they can't do shit against their Foehn counterparts.The Cyclops has some serious firepower,the Draco is perfect for ambushing,while the Bison fits a defensive role nicely.But if they seem UP,then blame it on the OP infantry.

I think the reason of the MBT's perceived uselessness that as OP says anything above tier 2 outclasses them, but tier 2 can be reached rather quickly. This makes MBT's a rather bad investment. Not saying of corse that occasionally they can't get the job done, but comparing them to for example tier 1 anti-armor infantry or something like the various IFV's the Allies have, it becomes obvious that there is a very noticable lack of flexibility on the part of tier 1 tanks. I don't think they can be made more viable without becoming too powerful without rebalancing the entire mod.


You seem to be right on that one,any attempt to make the T1 tanks more utilizable will result in a radical change in the stats of all units and other stuff.
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#7 NorthFireZ

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Posted 18 July 2018 - 01:15 AM

I honestly think you’re wrong about MBTs here Jacko. Since they are practically the G.Is of the MO world. Most MBTs are really decent at their tiers which is T1. In a lot of early fights 4 bulldogs can do some stupid amount of damage. Even sacrificing the tanks to kill the WF is a worth investment. MBTS can’t fight a lot of the higher tier units because of the tech investment. T2-T3 unit’s are both more expensive and takes longer to build. With the up coming build time buff it’s going to be quite easy to pump out a lot of tanks. Sure they can’t deal with infantry except squishing but that’s not the point of them. They are anti other MBTs and anti building.

You wouldn’t use a G.I to fight a deso or an Iniate vs a huntress so why would you use a MBT vs a Teslacruiser or Nuwa or literally any T3 monster tanks???

As for dealing with T3 monsters a lot of time it comes down to heroes and range. Heroes absolutely trash MBTs into the dirt but then again do you really build much G.Is at late game anyways?

Could always equalize MBT range to 6 so they don’t get out ranged by literally everything.

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#8 FELITH

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Posted 18 July 2018 - 07:40 AM

I do agree with Mantis unique healing gimmick it really sucks. the ability can be easily denied by destroying them one by one.
the healing radius of effect should be double to supplement that. seriously the radius of it for now barely does a thing.


Edited by FELITH, 18 July 2018 - 08:06 AM.


#9 Thesilver

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Posted 18 July 2018 - 01:00 PM

It's too bad there are no upgrades in mental omega. That is usually how T1 units keep up with higher tier units in other games. I will say though that the damage multiplier against infantry does seem a little too low perhaps. One thing that would help is better performance against Pillboxes and sentry guns. This is mainly durability based since they do seem to be a bit too effective against MBT's when their numbers are low (as in T1).



#10 PACER

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Posted 18 July 2018 - 03:04 PM

It's too bad there are no upgrades in mental omega. That is usually how T1 units keep up with higher tier units in other games. I will say though that the damage multiplier against infantry does seem a little too low perhaps. One thing that would help is better performance against Pillboxes and sentry guns. This is mainly durability based since they do seem to be a bit too effective against MBT's when their numbers are low (as in T1).

 

Nothing is impossible with Ares' injection. A T3 provider can 'replace' the unit with something more powerful, and revert the process when player loses tech access. (Provided that Alex is willing to code it ofc)


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#11 NorthFireZ

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Posted 18 July 2018 - 04:18 PM

DarkEmblem already did it with basic infantry like G.Is and Conscripts, it's not impossible to do with main battle tanks


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#12 Divine

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Posted 18 July 2018 - 11:29 PM

It's too bad there are no upgrades in mental omega. That is usually how T1 units keep up with higher tier units in other games. I will say though that the damage multiplier against infantry does seem a little too low perhaps. One thing that would help is better performance against Pillboxes and sentry guns. This is mainly durability based since they do seem to be a bit too effective against MBT's when their numbers are low (as in T1).

I doubt that upgrades are ever coming to MO, even if they would add a completely new dimension to the game. It would be nice to have a new "Upgrades" tab above the cameo bar with global and per unit/building upgrades featured on it, upgrades that would not be unlike those you can find in later C&C games such as Generals or TW.

 

A bit far fetched but if new tabs could be added, why stop there? Every factory could have its own, just as it is in TW. Parallel unit training and building construction would be awesome. One can dream, I guess?


Edited by Divine, 18 July 2018 - 11:29 PM.

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#13 Handepsilon

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Posted 19 July 2018 - 12:11 AM

Upgrades are possible. Just make an invisible and indestructible air unit that emits invisible buff aura that affects units in global scale and exclusive building to train them. But as Divine said, it's unlikely that upgrades will ever come.

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#14 GoodGame1324

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Posted 19 July 2018 - 01:48 AM

Though I think you may have exaggerated the shortcomings of MBTs, I agree that they are underwhelming and see very limited use. 

 

There is a reason why in small maps it is usually better to go for double refs before war factory (eg. dune patrol). You get a much better eco through your process of going double ref before war factory. Double ref before war factory is good because the threat of your opponent getting armoured vehicles earlier is not a concern at all, as you can fend them off with a mass of infantry.

 

On top of all that, infantry rushes are much more threatening than any other T1 rush. 



#15 Drezalnor

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Posted 19 July 2018 - 12:45 PM

It's too bad there are no upgrades in mental omega. That is usually how T1 units keep up with higher tier units in other games. I will say though that the damage multiplier against infantry does seem a little too low perhaps. One thing that would help is better performance against Pillboxes and sentry guns. This is mainly durability based since they do seem to be a bit too effective against MBT's when their numbers are low (as in T1).

I doubt that upgrades are ever coming to MO, even if they would add a completely new dimension to the game. It would be nice to have a new "Upgrades" tab above the cameo bar with global and per unit/building upgrades featured on it, upgrades that would not be unlike those you can find in later C&C games such as Generals or TW.
 
A bit far fetched but if new tabs could be added, why stop there? Every factory could have its own, just as it is in TW. Parallel unit training and building construction would be awesome. One can dream, I guess?
If AlexB would code that in later versions of the ARES DLL,that simply would make this mod a million times better!(No offense though,it is damn good right now).I do hope it comes.

Upgrades are possible. Just make an invisible and indestructible air unit that emits invisible buff aura that affects units in global scale and exclusive building to train them. But as Divine said, it's unlikely that upgrades will ever come.

Ummm...I must remind you that Speeder has said he's not going to introduce any aura mechanic as it exists in WC3 in MO.Besides,Handepsilon,this idea of yours is illogical-even Heroes providing a buff aura in WC3 are not meant to be invincible on all counts,as you are proposing.A separate Upgrades tab as Divine says is a better idea.
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#16 JackoDerp

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Posted 19 July 2018 - 03:22 PM

I honestly think you’re wrong about MBTs here Jacko. Since they are practically the G.Is of the MO world. Most MBTs are really decent at their tiers which is T1. In a lot of early fights 4 bulldogs can do some stupid amount of damage. Even sacrificing the tanks to kill the WF is a worth investment. MBTS can’t fight a lot of the higher tier units because of the tech investment. T2-T3 unit’s are both more expensive and takes longer to build. With the up coming build time buff it’s going to be quite easy to pump out a lot of tanks. Sure they can’t deal with infantry except squishing but that’s not the point of them. They are anti other MBTs and anti building.

You wouldn’t use a G.I to fight a deso or an Iniate vs a huntress so why would you use a MBT vs a Teslacruiser or Nuwa or literally any T3 monster tanks???

As for dealing with T3 monsters a lot of time it comes down to heroes and range. Heroes absolutely trash MBTs into the dirt but then again do you really build much G.Is at late game anyways?

Could always equalize MBT range to 6 so they don’t get out ranged by literally everything.


Alright I see your point... sort of.
You're saying that MBTs are balanced because everything else you can buy at that tier is equally useless, which is mostly true, but that doesn't really disprove my argument that they're trash.
The reason I say this is because some factions don't have a reliable way to take down spammed T3 Monsters. USA struggle against anyone that can spam a better Abrams (*Cough* Soviets *Cough*), Scorpion Cell literally don't have one, and Haihead can have a nasty time as well.

It does prove this though:

Ultimately I think the problem is the vast vast difference in power between T1/T2 units and T3 units, and that they are completely non-cost-effective.


In a lot of games if you lose your T3 its just gg kill yourself at the moment, mostly for this reason.

Everyone seems to be arguing over how Yunru came into such a position of power,

yet nobody is willing to explain how Rahn's weapon is able to teleport a pair of shorts.

 

8QTUrX0.png


#17 Divine

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Posted 19 July 2018 - 06:53 PM

Upgrades that give a simple buff are indeed easy to implement, Chimaera Cores, Megaarenas and Spinblades work that way, except that they are not invisible and have limited range.

 

But those kind of upgrades are lame. Good upgrades are more substantial, they give different appearence, radically different weapons, new abilities etc to the affected units and vehicles. Sadly, I don't think any of this is possible even with Ares. 


Edited by Divine, 19 July 2018 - 06:53 PM.

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#18 NorthFireZ

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Posted 19 July 2018 - 09:40 PM

I don’t think the power difference between T1 and T3 unit’s can ever be fixed really. MO is too focused around that to change. However there’s some stuff you can do to make the game drastically better and it probably starts with giving Warfactory Heavy armor and buffing MBTs so they are actually a reasonable cost efficient threat.

For example in Supreme Commander there’s actually a very good ratio of how many T1 units can beat a T2 unit on a direct fire engagement. We just need to find the sweet spot of cost to stats for the early MBTs so that they might be relevant in challenge units late game.

Or, another suggestion is to give the factions struggling against heavy armor other options. Hijakcers I think the one for SC

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#19 DarkEmblem

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Posted 19 July 2018 - 09:49 PM

You guys should actually give my MO (balance?) mod a try sometime. And upgrades are pretty easy to do. As long as you invest time. But we all know that won't happen in vanilla ¯\_(ツ)_/¯


Edited by DarkEmblem, 19 July 2018 - 09:49 PM.


#20 Drezalnor

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Posted 20 July 2018 - 12:12 AM

Upgrades that give a simple buff are indeed easy to implement, Chimaera Cores, Megaarenas and Spinblades work that way, except that they are not invisible and have limited range.
 
But those kind of upgrades are lame. Good upgrades are more substantial, they give different appearence, radically different weapons, new abilities etc to the affected units and vehicles. Sadly, I don't think any of this is possible even with Ares.

Did you forget Nanofibre Sync?I wish it could be extended to the Foehn vehicles as well.
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