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Just some thoughts about PsiCorps


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#1 Divine

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Posted 11 October 2018 - 09:35 PM

My favorite faction ever since I started playing Mental Omega. Not because it's so good -in fact I always found it a bit underwhelming compared to raw firepower focused factions, but because I like the idea of psychic soldiers duking it out against conventional weapons. A bit X-man-esque, you know. Psychics not being a one in a million occurance but being numerous enough to form an army on their own has some serious implications. So much room for headcanon too. And fan fiction. And in general, epicness. I really hope that the end of the MO campaign will live up to the immense potential of the lore. Heck, the appearence of this many psychics could be the basis of the lore of a game on its own. Even though Yuri's Revenge had an ambivalent welcome back then, I'm certain now, that with Mental Omega, Yuri (the Epsilon Army) is the best thing that ever happened to the Red Alert series.

 

That being said, I find it that PsiCorps... doesn't nearly have enough psychics. A little bit better Adepts, sure. A monster tank that is made of Frankeinsteined brains of said Adepts. A few gimmicks here and there. And a heroine who got a very important role in the campaign but in the game... she is basically an overglorified grenadier. Point is, that the psychic aspect of PsiCorps is almost entirely represented by just a little more mind control. I think this wastes the huge potential that lies within its theme.

 

I really wish there was an Epsilon faction, PsiCorps or a completely new one, that would ephasise more on actually weaponizing psychics instead of using gimmicky technologies. A lot more glass cannon-ish and lot less subversive. I think psychics for Epsilon is like what Tiberium is for Nod - their very future in material form, yet somehow it doesn't really come through. Remember how cocky was Kane and Nod in general about their whole perceived "evolution" thing? How every aspect of Nod technology was influenced by Tiberium somehow? I wish it was similar with PsiCorps and psychics.



#2 Handepsilon

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Posted 12 October 2018 - 10:18 AM

Tbh PsiCorps is about both psychic and anti-gravity (based on Elite and Libra's telekinesis). Not sure where Marauders and Gehenna falls from here (though the latter might be the Dybbuks? not sure), but that's how their magnetic weaponries come from


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#3 BotRot

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Posted 12 October 2018 - 12:16 PM

RA2 psionics were themed on mostly mind control, and when used for destruction, it's often raw and not handled by a single person (same goes for MO, Reshephs as a good example). Currently, only telekinesis from Libra, pyrokinesis by Initiates and probably aerokinesis by Zorbtrotters/Zorbfloaters are examples of individual psychic powers, but they all need some special equipment to become menacing in a war, something only Yuri or his (former) associates can replicate.

 

If there are other psychics that can use, say, cryokinesis, it could be, it deviates from that theme that made RA2's Yuri iconic and even farther than MO has already established. On an in-universe scale, Yuri had trouble with Libra when she went berserk twice, so any more psychics that aren't mind control would be troublesome and could even rival Yuri.


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#4 Tathmesh

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Posted 14 October 2018 - 03:43 PM

I can understand the sentiment of taking psychics to the extreme for PsiCorp's unit design. Something like this:

 

Psychic Archers - Uses mind to lob AROs

Decimator Infantry - Brute replacement that uses a miniature psychic decimator like the resheph. 

 

 

RA2 psionics were themed on mostly mind control, and when used for destruction, it's often raw and not handled by a single person (same goes for MO, Reshephs as a good example). Currently, only telekinesis from Libra, pyrokinesis by Initiates and probably aerokinesis by Zorbtrotters/Zorbfloaters are examples of individual psychic powers, but they all need some special equipment to become menacing in a war, something only Yuri or his (former) associates can replicate.

 

If there are other psychics that can use, say, cryokinesis, it could be, it deviates from that theme that made RA2's Yuri iconic and even farther than MO has already established. On an in-universe scale, Yuri had trouble with Libra when she went berserk twice, so any more psychics that aren't mind control would be troublesome and could even rival Yuri.

 

 

Unfortunately PF has the cytokinesis theme locked down. But it would have been rad to see HQ-specific Initiates that used cryokinesis instead of pyrokinesis. 



#5 Divine

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Posted 14 October 2018 - 03:56 PM

I can understand the sentiment of taking psychics to the extreme for PsiCorp's unit design. Something like this:
 
Psychic Archers - Uses mind to lob AROs
Decimator Infantry - Brute replacement that uses a miniature psychic decimator like the resheph. 
 
 

RA2 psionics were themed on mostly mind control, and when used for destruction, it's often raw and not handled by a single person (same goes for MO, Reshephs as a good example). Currently, only telekinesis from Libra, pyrokinesis by Initiates and probably aerokinesis by Zorbtrotters/Zorbfloaters are examples of individual psychic powers, but they all need some special equipment to become menacing in a war, something only Yuri or his (former) associates can replicate.
 
If there are other psychics that can use, say, cryokinesis, it could be, it deviates from that theme that made RA2's Yuri iconic and even farther than MO has already established. On an in-universe scale, Yuri had trouble with Libra when she went berserk twice, so any more psychics that aren't mind control would be troublesome and could even rival Yuri.

 
 
Unfortunately PF has the cytokinesis theme locked down. But it would have been rad to see HQ-specific Initiates that used cryokinesis instead of pyrokinesis.

 


I had an idea very similar to what you call the Decimator Infantry, although I imagined it as a tier 3 artillery unit.

Spoiler


Also another one for a flying infantry.
Spoiler


#6 Drezalnor

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Posted 03 November 2018 - 07:20 AM

I can understand the sentiment of taking psychics to the extreme for PsiCorp's unit design. Something like this:

Psychic Archers - Uses mind to lob AROs
Decimator Infantry - Brute replacement that uses a miniature psychic decimator like the resheph.


RA2 psionics were themed on mostly mind control, and when used for destruction, it's often raw and not handled by a single person (same goes for MO, Reshephs as a good example). Currently, only telekinesis from Libra, pyrokinesis by Initiates and probably aerokinesis by Zorbtrotters/Zorbfloaters are examples of individual psychic powers, but they all need some special equipment to become menacing in a war, something only Yuri or his (former) associates can replicate.

If there are other psychics that can use, say, cryokinesis, it could be, it deviates from that theme that made RA2's Yuri iconic and even farther than MO has already established. On an in-universe scale, Yuri had trouble with Libra when she went berserk twice, so any more psychics that aren't mind control would be troublesome and could even rival Yuri.



Unfortunately PF has the cytokinesis theme locked down. But it would have been rad to see HQ-specific Initiates that used cryokinesis instead of pyrokinesis.
I had an idea very similar to what you call the Decimator Infantry, although I imagined it as a tier 3 artillery unit.
Spoiler


Also another one for a flying infantry.
Spoiler
Now that's great.They really are great ideas.

I have been thinking about this idea-it's for a siege vehicle-but it's meant for HQ.
Spoiler

Edited by Drezalnor, 05 November 2018 - 06:07 PM.

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#7 Polaris Starnor

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Posted 03 November 2018 - 12:15 PM

Epsilon HQ is fine the way it is, more siege solutions for a relatively defensive faction isn’t quite necessary, remember that stalkers are combatants in general, and able to support their army when facing infantry hordes. Not to mention that besides the plasmerizer itself, T3 defences don’t do much damage to infantry, although the new unit you’re suggesting would still need to get in the range of T3 defences.

Although I think psicorps could use an alternate offensive option.

#8 Drezalnor

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Posted 04 November 2018 - 06:31 AM

Epsilon HQ is fine the way it is, more siege solutions for a relatively defensive faction isn’t quite necessary, remember that stalkers are combatants in general, and able to support their army when facing infantry hordes. Not to mention that besides the plasmerizer itself, T3 defences don’t do much damage to infantry, although the new unit you’re suggesting would still need to get in the range of T3 defences.

Although I think psicorps could use an alternate offensive option.

Well,HQ is more of a faction relying on assertive tactics,not defensive(like LB).

T3 defences are not anti-personnel,I know,but Stalkers are still vulnerable to anti-personnel fire.I just wanted a siege option for HQ that is sturdier and more hardy.

Ummm....excuse me?What's the range on the Grand Cannon,Hammer Defense,Antares Battery and Neutralizer then?(Coz I know them to be 14 and I said that in the siege mode,the Satyr has a range of 14.5).

As for an alternate offensive option for PsiCorps-please clarify.
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#9 Petya

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Posted 04 November 2018 - 09:53 AM

I wouldn't really touch HQ at all, because out of all factions, because it requires the most strategic decisions. HQ has the best map control in the game in my opinion, not to mention all the ambush and harass options it has.

 

PsiCorps is micro intensive. It has a lot of offensive options.



#10 Divine

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Posted 04 November 2018 - 12:38 PM

I have been thinking about this idea-it's for a siege vehicle-but it's meant for HQ.

Spoiler

I have a bit hard time visualizing the unit, but the concept seems interesting. Though HQ already has a siege unit, but who says we can't have more than one?
 

I wouldn't really touch HQ at all, because out of all factions, because it requires the most strategic decisions. HQ has the best map control in the game in my opinion, not to mention all the ambush and harass options it has.
 
PsiCorps is micro intensive. It has a lot of offensive options.

HAHAHAHAHHAHHA-no. Their "siege" unit is slow, has bad armor, can't outrange tier 3 defense, can't deal damage to anything but buildings. Their T3 monster tank can't even engage some ground units, let alone buildings. Their tier 2 is also made of wet tissue paper for a change, also has bad damage vs structures IIRC. In fact, PsiCorps has the worst siege options of the three Epsilon factions, but you are welcome to try and change my mind. Bonus: Libra deals good damage against base structures, but mediocre to horrible against defences.


Edited by Divine, 04 November 2018 - 12:45 PM.


#11 Drezalnor

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Posted 04 November 2018 - 12:45 PM

I have been thinking about this idea-it's for a siege vehicle-but it's meant for HQ.

Spoiler

I have a bit hard time visualizing the unit, but the concept seems interesting. Though HQ already has a siege unit, but who says we can't have more than one?
Sorry for your visualizing trouble,I'm not good at pictorial details.

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#12 Drezalnor

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Posted 04 November 2018 - 02:11 PM

 

I wouldn't really touch HQ at all, because out of all factions, because it requires the most strategic decisions. HQ has the best map control in the game in my opinion, not to mention all the ambush and harass options it has.
 
PsiCorps is micro intensive. It has a lot of offensive options.

HAHAHAHAHHAHHA-no. Their "siege" unit is slow, has bad armor, can't outrange tier 3 defense, can't deal damage to anything but buildings. Their T3 monster tank can't even engage some ground units, let alone buildings. Their tier 2 is also made of wet tissue paper for a change, also has bad damage vs structures IIRC. In fact, PsiCorps has the worst siege options of the three Epsilon factions, but you are welcome to try and change my mind. Bonus: Libra deals good damage against base structures, but mediocre to horrible against defences.
Point.Magnetrons are good only for immobilization,but it sucks as a siege option.The Mastermind is meant primarily for disruption and subversion.

I don't know if the Plague Splatterer is any better,but that won't change my poor opinion of the Magnetron.
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#13 OfficialLolicon

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Posted 04 November 2018 - 02:43 PM

I don't know if the Plague Splatterer is any better,but that won't change my poor opinion of the Magnetron.

If my opinion counts, the last time I used them.. I didn't find splatters better in sieging defenses straight, it's better as a support unit where other units can tank the damage for them (like a clump of mantis tanks), most of the time. The splatter's damage against structures are pretty fair, but Magnetron out damages them in damage and ROF. 

Magnetrons are better as support as well, since there magnetic weapons are are semi-EMP against plated/mechanical infantry. 

 

But, in the overall comparison, Divine's right. PsiCorps does lock sieging capabilities unlike Scorpion Cell and HQ. The existance of Tyrants for SC, and Colossus for HQ (and stalkers, Rahn, Irkalla too... but will literally get destroyed and sucks against defenses), I don't play PsiCorps most of time, but the way other players seem to use them kinda sees this. (I tried once, I actually used Mags as sieg, but they end up nearly being destroyed)


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#14 Polaris Starnor

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Posted 04 November 2018 - 04:06 PM

Well,HQ is more of a faction relying on assertive tactics,not defensive(like LB).

T3 defences are not anti-personnel,I know,but Stalkers are still vulnerable to anti-personnel fire.I just wanted a siege option for HQ that is sturdier and more hardy.

Ummm....excuse me?What's the range on the Grand Cannon,Hammer Defense,Antares Battery and Neutralizer then?(Coz I know them to be 14 and I said that in the siege mode,the Satyr has a range of 14.5).

As for an alternate offensive option for PsiCorps-please clarify.


The satyr would only be able to outrange T3 defences at certain angles, because tile logic, and it might take too much time to find those spots. HQ is still pretty good defensively, and I would hope you wouldn’t just have stalkers in your unit blob to get mowed down. I can’t think of a fitting way to give psicorps another offensive option really, in general defences are too durable at the moment so it’s hard to tell how the magnetrons should be doing.

#15 Petya

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Posted 04 November 2018 - 09:08 PM

Let me rephrase it:

PsiCorps is a faction with emphasis on offensive early game and defensive lategame. Saying that PsiCorps lacks offensive options is just not right, because up to T2 they are purely offensive, their T3 puts more emphasis on defensive or deathball strategies. They are the middle ground between HQ's defensive and SC's offensive playstyle.

 

I would also kindly remind you, that many of the T3 siege units can't outrange T3 defenses and Epsilon has Basilisk for such cases. So saying that PsiCorps lacks offensive power just because the Magnetron can't outrange T3 defenses is definitely wrong, because it wasn't supposed to do that at the first place.

 

Mastermind can wreak havoc in enemy armies if micromanaged properly. It isn't a purely offensive unit nor a purely defensive one, it can fill either role depending on the use. Even Gehenna isn't purely defensive unit, because it can harass air units as well.

 

Also let's not buff a faction, which some people consider OP, due to the highly effective strategies it has.



#16 CLAlstar

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Posted 04 November 2018 - 09:17 PM

HAHAHAHAHHAHHA-no. Their "siege" unit is slow, has bad armor, can't outrange tier 3 defense, can't deal damage to anything but buildings. Their T3 monster tank can't even engage some ground units, let alone buildings. Their tier 2 is also made of wet tissue paper for a change, also has bad damage vs structures IIRC. In fact, PsiCorps has the worst siege options of the three Epsilon factions, but you are welcome to try and change my mind. Bonus: Libra deals good damage against base structures, but mediocre to horrible against defences.

 

 

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#17 Divine

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Posted 04 November 2018 - 10:57 PM

Let me rephrase it:

PsiCorps is a faction with emphasis on offensive early game and defensive lategame. Saying that PsiCorps lacks offensive options is just not right, because up to T2 they are purely offensive, their T3 puts more emphasis on defensive or deathball strategies. They are the middle ground between HQ's defensive and SC's offensive playstyle.

 

I would also kindly remind you, that many of the T3 siege units can't outrange T3 defenses and Epsilon has Basilisk for such cases. So saying that PsiCorps lacks offensive power just because the Magnetron can't outrange T3 defenses is definitely wrong, because it wasn't supposed to do that at the first place.

 

Mastermind can wreak havoc in enemy armies if micromanaged properly. It isn't a purely offensive unit nor a purely defensive one, it can fill either role depending on the use. Even Gehenna isn't purely defensive unit, because it can harass air units as well.

 

Also let's not buff a faction, which some people consider OP, due to the highly effective strategies it has.

Okay. But what makes the Magnetron kinda sucky as a siege unit is that not only it has bad range, but it also has bad armor and slow speed. I know, it has other uses, but as a siege unit, it is mediocre at best. Unless the enemy base is like, right next to the ocean, I guess. And I do not doubt the Mastermind's strengths, I just pointed out its weakness in the context of siegeing. And please for the love of god don't get me started on the Gehenna. I'm not entirely sure what you mean by T2 being entirely offensive.

 

PsiCorps is not OP. It is broken. Against some factions it can be nigh unbeatable. Against others it is definetaly an underdog. Also very much depends on the amount of water on the map. This mod started as an attempt to fix Yuri's broken army, rebalance it, nerf it where needed, add new stuff elsewhere. Worked wonders with HQ and SC to be honest, but PsiCorps is still too similar to vanilla Yuri. Things were taken away or were neutered, but almost nothing really unique was added in turn, speaking mostly in the context of technologies, not units. HQ got plasma, implosion weapons, genetic modification, stealth, SC got a nice arsenal of chemical weapons and subterranean tech. PsiCorps got magnetism, which is nice and new in the way it is implemented, and excessive mind control, straight from YR. But mind control is a gimmic. It is not a reliable technology. Sometimes it works wonders, sometimes it hardly works at all, depending on the opposing army's makeup, which in turn depends on its faction. Similarly with the great amphibious capability, on some maps it works wonders on some maps it is useless. I think this is a very bad model for balancing a faction.

 

 

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Edited by Divine, 04 November 2018 - 11:08 PM.


#18 Handepsilon

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Posted 05 November 2018 - 07:06 AM

Wouldn't that make you rather unqualified to judge about the viability of Magnetron?

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#19 Drezalnor

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Posted 05 November 2018 - 09:36 AM

Divine,I racked my brains for a suitable alternative for the Gehenna Platform-and this is what came up.
Spoiler

Tbh,the Nephilim Hive partly resembles the Drone Carrier Hoverdyne of the Order of the New Dawn in Ground Control.

Considering that the description makes it sound like a stolen tech unit....Well,there is a possibility to think about.

Edited by Drezalnor, 05 November 2018 - 03:28 PM.

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#20 Petya

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Posted 05 November 2018 - 12:02 PM

Okay. But what makes the Magnetron kinda sucky as a siege unit is that not only it has bad range, but it also has bad armor and slow speed. I know, it has other uses, but as a siege unit, it is mediocre at best. Unless the enemy base is like, right next to the ocean, I guess. And I do not doubt the Mastermind's strengths, I just pointed out its weakness in the context of siegeing. And please for the love of god don't get me started on the Gehenna. I'm not entirely sure what you mean by T2 being entirely offensive.

 

PsiCorps is not OP. It is broken. Against some factions it can be nigh unbeatable. Against others it is definetaly an underdog. Also very much depends on the amount of water on the map. This mod started as an attempt to fix Yuri's broken army, rebalance it, nerf it where needed, add new stuff elsewhere. Worked wonders with HQ and SC to be honest, but PsiCorps is still too similar to vanilla Yuri. Things were taken away or were neutered, but almost nothing really unique was added in turn, speaking mostly in the context of technologies, not units. HQ got plasma, implosion weapons, genetic modification, stealth, SC got a nice arsenal of chemical weapons and subterranean tech. PsiCorps got magnetism, which is nice and new in the way it is implemented, and excessive mind control, straight from YR. But mind control is a gimmic. It is not a reliable technology. Sometimes it works wonders, sometimes it hardly works at all, depending on the opposing army's makeup, which in turn depends on its faction. Similarly with the great amphibious capability, on some maps it works wonders on some maps it is useless. I think this is a very bad model for balancing a faction.

Just as China can be super overwhelming on small maps and totally underwhelming on big maps and luckily there are more professionals to decide what is a bad model for balancing. :p

 

In RTS games the geography of maps really decide what you are going to use and yes, that can make certain factions more superior, but that doesn't mean there aren't countermeasures and others are totally shut down. And yet again:

 

Not all units were supposed to be used all the time

 

If you don't plan your unit composition then yes, you are going to lose to a smarter enemy.

 

As for the Magnetron: it's a support + siege unit, it's not going to have bigger range because it will make its support power overtuned. It's not a dedicated anti-structure unit, so there is really no point in touching it. And its armor is the same as most of the siege units. Plus, repair units exist, you can tank out the damage of T3 defenses, which deal relatively low damage to Magnetrons to say.






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