53 replies to this topic

[Unsociallobster]

Hey just an idea, just wanted to state that its plausible!

[asterix120]

I am for building a mod around the squad of the fallen. Limit the construction of the remaining units. 1 unit of hawks 1 unit of favorites.
All improvements for the fallen squad + with the transition to t2,3,4 increase their number in the squad. Give them a set of weapons so that they are a fully universal squad.
SO they also need improvement making them invisible.

But they still need Cypher. Yet he is the face of fallen angels.

[Iserador]

Well. It seems to me that the Fallen, should be played from stealth and the use of various tricks. They don't need big squads or heavy-duty units. Their tactics-a slow penetration into the ranks of the enemy, followed by a powerful blow.

Of course, they can often be seen at the head of various cults, so T1 units, in principle, everything is clear. It can be like the classical heretics, or detachments of the guard who don't understand whom will serve.

Basically, I think this approach is interesting. Weak infantry units, with one or two elite squads. And also various heroes (known Fallen) with a heap of abilities which cardinally change a course of fight (submission of infantry of the opponent, decrease in fighting spirit, capture of equipment, introduction of troubles in ranks of the opponent(all attack all), slowdown, theft of buildings 0.о)

And robes, robes to all.

Well, something like that.

 

 

[Kekoulis]

Actually,this is what I suggested as well.

 

And yes,all infantry units,with the exception of the custom Renegade Guard model I made for them,wear robes.

 

Actually,I am thinking to make a Fallen Angels Seraphim Squadron.

[Gambit]

OK, I red your thoughts, so first let me clarify three things:

 

1] Brother Unsociallobster said:

My idea, is it possible to have a player controlled army where your units can essentially rebel against you in certain ways and later return to your control?

OF COURSE it is!!! Nice idea by the way.

But... how should we implement it?

On Dark Angels?? I think they are OK already - such a mechanic would definitely weaken them!

If it is for the Fallen Angles,... They yes!

 

 

2] Cypher: I will change the SCaR. My current design is that Cypher is unavailable to BOTH armies, UNLESS you enable the Win Condition that enables him. If enabled, he appears in ONE of the DA/FA player, randomly.

- If he appears to a DA player, you already know what happens. He may "desert", he may not. Either way, you get him ONLY ONCE, for the DA players.

- If he appears to a FA player, he takes the Fallen Cypher form, of course! And there will be a change to join a GOOD faction, this time swapping to his good form. For the FA player, the player who gets him, he may have him as a normal Commander (not only once). Unless, he changes Allegiance, of course!

 

 

3] Fallen Angles will be a separate race, but will be packed in the DA mod.

 

 

Now, reading your notes above, it seems that the only way to implement brother Unsociallobster's approach AND combine it with whatever I red, we must follow this path:

...or detachments of the guard who don't understand whom will serve.

... As mentioned above.

 

 

Should we proceed thus?

I was more for leaving that part to Cypher, and have the Fallen be a "standard" race.

But we CAN have the rule brother Unsociallobster said, applied to specific squads and vehicles!

Awaiting thoughts.

Edited by Gambit, 15 October 2019 - 01:05 PM.

[Kekoulis]

 

I was more for leaving that part to Cypher, and have the Fallen be a "standard" race.

But we CAN have the rule brother Unsociallobster said, applied to specific squads and vehicles!

Awaiting thoughts.

I suggest the full Fallen standard race with the betray gimmick when morale lost.Makes more sense that way me thinks.

 

Cypher should be fluid in both races.He can betray both armies.

 

Just in the DA is random whereas in the FA,he is standard.

 

Also,check what brothers Iserador and Asterix120 said.

[Iserador]

 

 

I suggest the full Fallen standard race with the betray gimmick when morale lost.Makes more sense that way me thinks.

And the first unit - something like a missionary SB with the ability to entice enemy units (Age of Empires?).

To ability to was available in the second dash and cost influence with vigor. Which is not cheap, so as not to lure everyone one by one.

I feel that the translator is translating something wrong. But it doesn't matter.

In any case, we will be happy to try out the Fallen in the game.

 

Edited by Iserador, 15 October 2019 - 02:26 PM.

[Unsociallobster]

 

Thudo:

On Dark Angels?? I think they are OK already - such a mechanic would definitely weaken them!

If it is for the Fallen Angles,... They yes!

 

Only the Fallen Angles.

 

 

Kekoulis:

I suggest the full Fallen standard race with the betray gimmick when morale lost.Makes more sense that way me thinks.

 

What if a unit has low moral, or has very low numbers, or is alone/isolated from the rest of your army, or just remains idle for to long. Help keeps the player moving preventing camping or siege type tactics.

 

 

asterix120:

I am for building a mod around the squad of the fallen. Limit the construction of the remaining units. 

 

I completely agree with this! There are a small band getting by on what they can get. Reminds my a little bit of the 13th.

 

 

Iserador:

It seems to me that the Fallen, should be played from stealth and the use of various tricks. They don't need big squads or heavy-duty units. Their tactics-a slow penetration into the ranks of the enemy, followed by a powerful blow.

 

I also agree, this guerrilla type fighting compliments asterix120's idea of using very limited units. 

 

 

[Gambit]

And the first unit - something like a missionary SB with the ability to entice enemy units (Age of Empires?).

To ability to was available in the second dash and cost influence with vigor. Which is not cheap, so as not to lure everyone one by one.

I see the idea behnid this. VERY interesting!

But it would be really difficult to do properly.

For example, if by "entice", you mean "get them in your army", it would be rather awkward to have (say) Necron or Tyranid units.

On the other hand, if it mean "attack allies", then yeah.

 

What if a unit has low moral, or has very low numbers, or is alone/isolated from the rest of your army, or just remains idle for to long. Help keeps the player moving preventing camping or siege type tactics.

Nice, although it may be a bit more difficult to code. Perfectly doable, of course.

 

I completely agree with this! There are a small band getting by on what they can get. Reminds my a little bit of the 13th.

Again a very interesting idea, but what brother asterix120 suggested is not easily implemented...

I mean, how would we do that? Can you guys elaborate, in more "game-mechanic" terms?

 

It seems to me that the Fallen, should be played from stealth and the use of various tricks. They don't need big squads or heavy-duty units. Their tactics-a slow penetration into the ranks of the enemy, followed by a powerful blow.

With your remarks I sense a new direction formulating

But again, do you have any suggestion of how to implement it ?

[Iserador]

OK. I'll try to write more. So on T1 in my understanding of can be put one the team easy infantry (heretics, guard or renegades) and missionaries in as a units support (under joining to the team boosts marksmanship, fighting spirit and anything)

FROM Т2 I have a few thoughts. For example, the "tactical" detachment of the fallen should be small (say, three or four fighters), but universal (grenades, traps, invisibility, with the possibility of equipping various weapons).

Next, I do not know how much it is feasible, but is it possible to reduce the radius of their detection? Well or absolutely impossible option-to allow them to mimic under enemy infantry?

Further. From T2 to T3 we would like to focus on the commanders. For example, Stirks, "Slaughterer" will be able to reveal the map, increase the shooting damage or something similar (it seems to have fallen for the informant).

So far, I've had the idea that this looks like a mod FARSIGHT ENCLAVES. There is a minimum set of infantry, but full of commanders focused on the current task

About technology, nothing in head not comes.

Well, something like that.

Схему сделать, что-ли.

[asterix120]

partially designed the concept in my head.
I'll write in the evening. This Google translator needs to be tormented.

[Kekoulis]

 

see the idea behnid this. VERY interesting!

But it would be really difficult to do properly.

For example, if by "entice", you mean "get them in your army", it would be rather awkward to have (say) Necron or Tyranid units.

On the other hand, if it mean "attack allies", then yeah.

This is something that concerned me as well.My guess would be this mechanic to implemented only in DA vs FA scenarios,just like in the fluff.

 

And the attack allies/refusing orders for the rest.

 

Makes more sense imo and is much easier applicable.

 

 

Again a very interesting idea, but what brother asterix120 suggested is not easily implemented...

I mean, how would we do that? Can you guys elaborate, in more "game-mechanic" terms?

Again,it is similar to what I suggested in my first post but everyone is ignoring me for some reason.

Essentially they start with small tactical squads(4) and gain more members and weapon upgrades as the tiers progress.

However,we do have to differentiate the tacticals of the havoks and the raptors.Also,the model can be used as CC squads or chosens if needed.

 

 

With your remarks I sense a new direction formulating

But again, do you have any suggestion of how to implement it ?

What i would say is infiltration toggle ability,available from the start,a smoke like ability that provides a speed increase and invulnerability for a short amount but not able to deal any kind of damage.

This kind of abilities.

 

 

OK. I'll try to write more. So on T1 in my understanding of can be put one the team easy infantry (heretics, guard or renegades) and missionaries in as a units support (under joining to the team boosts marksmanship, fighting spirit and anything)

FROM Т2 I have a few thoughts. For example, the "tactical" detachment of the fallen should be small (say, three or four fighters), but universal (grenades, traps, invisibility, with the possibility of equipping various weapons).

I like the idea however,I must note that:

 

a.)I will not make fallen missionaries for the Fallen,I am sorry.Not fitting at all.

b.)I would rather not take the Farsight Enclaves route.

The normal DA are hero centric.The Fallen should be the antithesis.Instead they have fewer but more prominent heroes.Hence why I suggested making their Chapter Master and we keep Cypher with his mechanic.

 

These are my 2cts.

[Iserador]

 

 

I will not make fallen missionaries for the Fallen,I am sorry.Not fitting at all.

They're not exactly missionaries. They are more like spies. SB missionaries are only the first to come to mind as a comparison-one man in a squad.

BUT! It's just my thoughts.

[asterix120]

I thought about it. There are not so many fallen, and they are not going to be huge armies. Let's just say why not limit the Space Marines to the maximum

Т1

FA seduce imperial planets. No cultists. At headquarters, we are building a planetary defense forces detachment (10 people) (additional weapons with shotguns and grenade launchers)

will be used until the end of the game as a garbage detachment taking mass.

+ apostle

The apostle has magic that makes enemies fight each other. Detects Invisibility.

 

Barracks - tactical detachment (3 squad)(4 people) (flamethrowers (t1), rockets (t2), plasmagan (t2), sniper rifle (t3),? Gravgan? (T4) wolkite (t4, relic)

 

fragmentation grenade upgrade

Building with improvements - opens flamethrowers, standard improvement on a sword, plasma, pistol to commanders.

T2

 

Barracks

+2 to the unit of the fallen = improved crack grenades, you can add champions to the units.

Fallen angels lord

 

Havoks (8 people) (heavy bolter, lazgun, plasmagun, rockets, something cool on t4) Can I build 1? detachment.

 

Melee squad (favorites?) (8 people?) - 1! squad. (improvement on power claws?)

 

Armory - + hp second improvement. + damage, improvement increasing the range of attack of the fallen, + to additional weapons.

 

  Technique How not to try nothing new here

Rhino Hell Blade  Dreadnought Razorback

 

The building where we are building an apothecary, standard bearer, sorcerer. Improvement on hp commander, spells for the sorcerer.

 

T3

+2 to the fallen (8 people) and increase in the number of troops in PDF

 

Barracks + Fallen Deathwing Terminators (copy of the original) (1 squad)

 

Technique Predator Avenger

 

Armory 3! improvement on hp fallen. The second is for damage. Improvement making the fallen invisible.

 

A separate improvement by making the commander invisible?

 

T4

 

The fallen 10 people. teleport to terminators? The ability to build Astelyan (a nominal hero as in TA)

 

 

Improvement making invisible apothecary and standard bearers? and 3 damage improvements.

 

Improvement on HP planetary defense forces? (As for me, they should be a garbage detachment that the player will use until the end of the game and it is obvious that they need an up at t4 so that they remain in demand)

 

Land Raider technique (once again) Predator (yes, on T4, Predator is not needed garbage version) Whirlwind Thunderhawk

 

In general, my initial thoughts are as follows.

[Gambit]

...is it possible to reduce the radius of their detection?

What do you mean by that brother Iserador?
You want the Fallen to have smaller detection radius,  for stealth units? I do not understand.

Well or absolutely impossible option-to allow them to mimic under enemy infantry?

Hmmmm.... I do not know what will happen if we give a squad to belong to the WORLD (not to a player)... They may appear as allies to everyone! But I have not actually tested this. I can "explore" it. Should I?

 

 

This is something that concerned me as well.My guess would be this mechanic to implemented only in DA vs FA scenarios,just like in the fluff.

And the attack allies/refusing orders for the rest.

Makes more sense imo and is much easier applicable.

Perfect reasoning brother Kekoulis.

So I will make an ability like this:

Shifting Loyalties - Togleable.

Used by the Fallen Chaplains. (I think we must allow 3 - we will not use Apostles or Missionaries, I suppose)
If DA/FA around, you get them in your army. Otherwise, they attack allies/refusing orders for the rest.
Requires SCaR, but... NP for me.
 

However,we do have to differentiate the tacticals of the havoks and the raptors.Also,the model can be used as CC squads or chosens if needed.

What do you mean by "the model", brother Kek?
 

FA seduce imperial planets. No cultists. At headquarters, we are building a planetary defense forces detachment (10 people) (additional weapons with shotguns and grenade launchers)

will be used until the end of the game as a garbage detachment taking mass.

Brother asterix120, can you explain it? I think I got it, but please make it more clear, so that I have no doubts.

And thanks for the detailed Tier progression!

 

 

------------------------------------

 

So now, with:

1] Brother Unsociallobster's idea of making the Fallen have erratic behaviour when broken, and

2] Brother Iserador's idea on Shifting Loyalties, and brother Kekoulis'es addition/fix to this

.. I think we DO have fleshed out the very core of the Fallen!!!

This was the mechanic I was after, and I am glad I started this topic.

Add brother asterix120's detailed Tier progression, and I do have enough material to work upon.

 

Thanks brothers.

I have written down everything, added my notes and ideas, and I am now trying to put everything together.

Gimme some time, and I will pose a COMPLETE first design, trying to combine all the ideas into one neat implementation.

Edited by Gambit, 16 October 2019 - 08:21 PM.

[Kekoulis]

 

Used by the Fallen Chaplains. (I think we must allow 3 - we will not use Apostles or Missionaries, I suppose)
If DA/FA around, you get them in your army. Otherwise, they attack allies/refusing orders for the rest.
Requires SCaR, but... NP for me.

A Dark Apostle is a Chaos/Fallen Chaplain.Usually they are Word Bearers,as it is literally a Legion made out of Chaplains,but any Chaos Chaplain can be considered a Dark Apostle.

And yes,no Missionaries.Instead,enjoy the Futanari Missionary of the EC.

 

 

What do you mean by "the model", brother Kek?

I mean I made a multi model of the fallen with all possible weapon and wargear options.This means,you can amke tacticals,havoks,cqc,veteran squads out of them.

And ofc,champions included.

 

But for the jetpack,instead use the raptors I will send you.

 

 

What do you mean by that brother Iserador?
You want the Fallen to have smaller detection radius,  for stealth units? I do not understand.

I think he means making it harder for the enemy to see through their cloak.Impossible engine wise.

[Gambit]

A Dark Apostle is a Chaos/Fallen Chaplain.Usually they are Word Bearers,as it is literally a Legion made out of Chaplains,but any Chaos Chaplain can be considered a Dark Apostle.

Excellent.

 

I mean I made a multi model of the fallen with all possible weapon and wargear options.This means,you can amke tacticals,havoks,cqc,veteran squads out of them.

And ofc,champions included.

Very good!

 

 

I think he means making it harder for the enemy to see through their cloak.Impossible engine wise.

I can always us a trick for that!

There is an indirect method, but yeah, it does not work as expected...

[asterix120]

FA seduce imperial planets. No cultists. At headquarters, we are building a planetary defense forces detachment (10 people) (additional weapons with shotguns and grenade launchers)

will be used until the end of the game as a garbage detachment taking mass.

Brother asterix120, can you explain it? I think I got it, but please make it more clear, so that I have no doubts.

And thanks for the detailed Tier progression!

 

Well, since space marines are limited in quantity to the maximum.
We need a cheap and weak detachment that will create mass.
He is kind of weak, stupid, but there are a lot of them.

[Gambit]

OK, sorry for the long delay on presenting the Race Design I told you above - but brother Kek has sent me a HUGE batch of models, and I am in the process of putting them in game (I am a perfectionist, so starting from scratch makes me check EVERY INCH of the AE code!).

 

So far, the Tacticals/Havocs/Raptors (and their 3 Sergeants) are in. Not fully coded, I need their weapons.

I know, I have not put in the "masses" of renegades (our "meat" troops), because I have not finalised the exact system on how they will populate and grow in numbers.

 

But before proceeding, I want to ask about Termies. I have put them in as well.

And I need suggestions.

>> Should we follow the standard approach (1 assault, 1 ranged team with their leaders), OR should we have only one of them, in the form of a Kill-Team?? (4 leaders with specific weapons, + 3 weapon upgrades for the "regular" members). Or whatever.

Ideas?

We do not want to be repetitive, let's not re-create the same thing...

[thudo]

Something different in terms of gameplay is always a refreshing change.