Jump to content


Photo

Concerning Rivendell Siege Tactics


  • Please log in to reply
6 replies to this topic

#1 Helper01

Helper01
  • Members
  • 58 posts

Posted 05 May 2021 - 04:25 AM

I like the way you guys think creatively about why Rivendell wouldn't have siege machines while other factions would. I think you guys are very thoughtful in how you've approached it from a story perspective. But I think there's still some justification even in the story for siege machines. The Dunedain of the North often retreat to Rivendell after long excursions defending much of Eriador. Surely there would be old forts and such that would have started to have been taken over by orcs or other intelligent evils, and certainly evil men descended from the days of Angmar, as Sauron was stirring up all kinds of evil things in the world again--especially if you incorporate the Hobbit films' lore in that Sauron was trying to cause the realm of Angmar to rise again. Whose to say Sauron never caused fortifications to be built in the ancient past using the One Ring, so that the foundations for those fortresses remained intact, and watches upon them would have needed to be made. Having largely failed in this watch over the millennia due to the various crises that more or less ruined civilization in the North-west of Middle-earth and vastly depopulated it, maybe the Dunedain eventually discovered to their horror that at the end of the Third Age some of these fortresses were being reused and rebuilt, and had to be brought down again? Whose to say places like even Carn Dum weren't refortified...? Fortifications like that in the mountains and hills would indeed be too well defended if these descendants of the Numenoreans couldn't build stronger weapons than battering rams!

 

Even Elrond expresses deep concern in the books about the growing power of evil in the wilds around Rivendell. We know so little about this evil. I think my approach would be a great way to open this up to further ideas to interpret the potentially advanced nature of it.

   
Perhaps make Rivendell siege machines a bit unique in that maybe they're not as sophisticated because they would have to be built out in the wild to accommodate the wilderness? Crude, but still effective. Especially if enhanced by the natural power of the Elves and Dunedain. Perhaps make a special Dunadan enginer unit that builds them? Surely there would be extensive warfare knowledge in the libraries of Rivendell the Dunedain would have preserved for such occasions as besieging a fortress in the wilderness?
 
On a continuity level, it further seems odd to not have siege machines for Rivendell out on the battlefield given that there are siege machines that can defend the fortress! Why make that a reality to the neglect of having it on the battlefield...? To me, it makes Elrond, as one of the leaders of the Wise and wearer of one of the three Elven-rings, that much less wise....

 

Perhaps keep the Revelers but otherwise remove their Akallabeth power to be replaced by siege machines?

 

I also want to address the gameplay style itself. I'll risk saying this at the cost you may have heard similar arguments before, but it's worth saying, regardless. Rivendell really does need more traditional siege weapons of some sort. When the enemy has a ton of towers and guarded structures to defend itself, like Lothlorien, especially, the combination of that enemy's archers and the guards that spawn from structures, to say nothing of garrisons stationed there, becomes too much for Rivendell to handle without siege engines. Plus, against certain factions, such as the Misty Mountains and even Lothlorien, the Akallabeth power doesn't seem to do much against their primary structures, fortresses, for some reason. Is it the armor of high level of these structures? I've had experiences where I've pummeled and pummeled against a fortress of the Misty Mountains faction with the Akallabeth power to very little avail. A bug? I'm not sure. And battering rams are too beginning game for such strong defenses, even while they may do very good damage in large numbers of them. But if they can't get through mid- to late-game defenses, what's the point? Granted, Revelers may have longer range for the Akallabeth power than siege machines, but what good is it if they consistently do so little damage against the most important structures like fortresses? 

 

As for damaging walls, Rivendell is at a severe disadvantage, especially if the walls are well defended by towers and siege defenses. Unless I'm experiencing some sort of bug or something, Revelers don't seem to do meaningful damage to these walls. I was at one point taking on a player who was using Rohan who built himself a wall, so I tried to use the Revelers' Akallabeth power to take them down, but it took a highly inordinate amount of time, even using five of them--and that was just one section of the wall.

 

Another reason siege engines are so important is that the advanced siege of Rivendell, the Revelers, are so vital to increasing the resource output of Rivendell for most of the game, until the Reverence of Yavanna upgrade has been purchased. And even then, should the library be destroyed, you would need to pull that advanced siege back once again to help maintain proper resource production, and thus being back to square one with having to use beginning game siege, but now complicated by the game being late game.

 

All in all, while I like the idea of the Revelers as a much more unorthodox siege unit, complimenting the advanced nature of Rivendell as one of the last vestiges of the power of the Elder Days, due to the aforementioned issues, both in story concept and in gameplay style and value, not having siege engines is more often than not a bit too offsetting for such an advanced culture as Rivendell and the Dunedain. Even having some sort of option to use siege engines or Revelers in a sort of different sub-faction approach ala Erebor's two sub-factions would be more preferable. Maybe a "Culture of Elves" and a "Culture of the Dunedain" approach, to be researched at the Library?



#2 Pestum

Pestum
  • Members
  • 21 posts

Posted 05 May 2021 - 02:51 PM

I can´t see the problem people have with revelers. They have the same strenghts and weakness (building related) than a ballista, onager or catapult. They are defenseless like any other siege. A bit more because they can be trampled. 

 

Perhaps you don´t like to hit the button to cast the spell or something like that but you can siege no problems with revelers.



#3 Helper01

Helper01
  • Members
  • 58 posts

Posted 06 May 2021 - 08:25 PM

It must be bugs I've encountered, then, concerning Revelers. If it weren't for these unfortunate occurrences, I think the concept of the Revelers works decently well. I've had some good fights wherein I've been able to use them pretty well. But also enough games where the power does next to nothing. Not sure if it's enemy structure armor coming into play or a bug or what. Like I said in the post, I've played against Misty Mountains and Revelers consistently have done little to nothing, even using all five of them. And walls seem to have a similar problem. 

 

Question regarding the Revelers. When they decrease fortress armor, how precisely does that function in practical ways? Is it just easier to do more damage in general by other units as the Revelers continue to decrease armor? Or is there something else to it that I'm unaware of? Would decreasing armor basically provide a damage boost? And would this power work in conjunction with the Akallabeth ability used by other Revelers not using the armor debuff, thus allowing better damage to be done from that Akallabeth power?



#4 Helper01

Helper01
  • Members
  • 58 posts

Posted 07 May 2021 - 03:04 AM

Also, I will hold to my argument concerning the Revelers being bit unbalanced in how crucial they are to buffing Rivendell's economy. Given they are the faction's best siege, it's a bit disadvantageous that they are also such important supports, both for the economy and also for debuffing the enemy--especially since you are limited to only five of them. My argument is that they would likely work better as just supports, which would allow them to focus on more of their strengths. Their siege function seems to be too much of an outlier for how Rivendell functions. I believe having siege machines, even if perhaps a bit weaker in attack damage, similar to Rohan's onagers without the fire supplement, would work more advantageously to the faction. You could keep the Revelers as much needed support while still doing siege without sacrificing unnecessarily from the other, especially in the early to mid game when using them to boost the economy and debuff the enemy doing damage to Hobbits and Dunedain, who have little armor.



#5 Nerevar42

Nerevar42
  • Members
  • 36 posts

Posted 07 May 2021 - 10:19 AM

I don't like the idea of giving common siege machines to every faction in the game. For the sake of diversity, AOTR should keep this truly interesting idea that Revelers are. Maybe the team could rework their model so they actually look like magicians and not bards, or think about a system that is closer to WR druids or old Angmar sorcerers with purchaseable upgrades in the palantir, so you can specialize your Revelers in whether siege or support. But PLEASE do NOT give any siege machines to Rivendell, this is funny to play a faction that differs from the others and has different strategies. This makes the game much more versatile and pleasant in the long term.



#6 Helper01

Helper01
  • Members
  • 58 posts

Posted 10 May 2021 - 12:21 AM

You make a good point about trying to keep each faction unique, and not wanting to use siege machines for every faction. But a bit of my reasoning had to do with the incorporation of siege machines for the Woodland Realm, which I was honestly a bit disappointed by, myself. It works, but is ultimately too unlike a reclusive faction living in the depths of a primordial forest, whatever their past in warfare may have been. To my mind, it makes far more sense that the arguable center for the Wise, Rivendell, and a major location as support for the events behind the War of the Ring, defending the North, and home to those who fought in the Last Alliance AND the overthrow of the realm of Angmar would only too reasonably possess machines of war as they continued the fight via the Dunedain, if not necessarily via the Elves due to their diminishment. The Dunedain are vital to the defense of the North given how the Elves are fading. Elrond would be aware of this, as would the Elves themselves. It would make that much more sense given that Elrond is also aware of Aragorn's status as the heir of Isildur, and the status the Dunedain in general hold as heirs of the Kingdom of Arnor bordering upon lands incredibly dangerous in the North. Aragorn, as the chieftain of the Dunedain, would reasonably push for enemy strongholds in the mountains of the North to be razed by his own kin.

 

So, while I understand your point about wanting to keep each faction unique, the idea of the Revelers as siege, even while highly unique, seems still, to my mind, to be too unlike the faction being represented. They work, especially from a thematic perspective, far better as support for the economy and for troops.

 

The Akallabeth compliments the Hall of Fire quite nicely, admittedly, but perhaps that's one way to better incorporate the Akallabeth, even? A tale told in the Hall of Fire that does siege damage? This would make the Rivendell faction that much more unique in that their siege would come from, ironically, a structure! And the really neat synergy that the Revelers provide would, of course, still be implemented nicely.

 

If anything, to my mind it makes far more sense to flip the Revelers' Akallabeth ability to the Woodland Realm in some way, and provide WR's siege weapons to Rivendell. Not necessarily the Akallabeth literally, given WR's history and being so comprised of Silvan Elves, but something like it, regardless. If a faction so reclusive and forest-centered as the Woodland Realm can have siege, on the other hand, being far less "advanced" insofar as not being a center of the Wise, it makes that much less sense for Rivendell to not at least have siege weapons as an option of some sort.



#7 Mathijs

Mathijs

    Post-modern Shaman

  • Network Leaders
  • 13,729 posts
  • Projects:Age of the Ring
  • Division:Revora
  • Job:Leader

Posted 10 May 2021 - 09:35 PM

I don't like the idea of giving common siege machines to every faction in the game. For the sake of diversity, AOTR should keep this truly interesting idea that Revelers are. Maybe the team could rework their model so they actually look like magicians and not bards, or think about a system that is closer to WR druids or old Angmar sorcerers with purchaseable upgrades in the palantir, so you can specialize your Revelers in whether siege or support. But PLEASE do NOT give any siege machines to Rivendell, this is funny to play a faction that differs from the others and has different strategies. This makes the game much more versatile and pleasant in the long term.

They are meant to be bards, though. It's a convenient cop-out from having to deviate from the lore by having magicians.

 

You make a good point about trying to keep each faction unique, and not wanting to use siege machines for every faction. But a bit of my reasoning had to do with the incorporation of siege machines for the Woodland Realm, which I was honestly a bit disappointed by, myself. It works, but is ultimately too unlike a reclusive faction living in the depths of a primordial forest, whatever their past in warfare may have been. To my mind, it makes far more sense that the arguable center for the Wise, Rivendell, and a major location as support for the events behind the War of the Ring, defending the North, and home to those who fought in the Last Alliance AND the overthrow of the realm of Angmar would only too reasonably possess machines of war as they continued the fight via the Dunedain, if not necessarily via the Elves due to their diminishment. The Dunedain are vital to the defense of the North given how the Elves are fading. Elrond would be aware of this, as would the Elves themselves. It would make that much more sense given that Elrond is also aware of Aragorn's status as the heir of Isildur, and the status the Dunedain in general hold as heirs of the Kingdom of Arnor bordering upon lands incredibly dangerous in the North. Aragorn, as the chieftain of the Dunedain, would reasonably push for enemy strongholds in the mountains of the North to be razed by his own kin.

 

So, while I understand your point about wanting to keep each faction unique, the idea of the Revelers as siege, even while highly unique, seems still, to my mind, to be too unlike the faction being represented. They work, especially from a thematic perspective, far better as support for the economy and for troops.

 

The Akallabeth compliments the Hall of Fire quite nicely, admittedly, but perhaps that's one way to better incorporate the Akallabeth, even? A tale told in the Hall of Fire that does siege damage? This would make the Rivendell faction that much more unique in that their siege would come from, ironically, a structure! And the really neat synergy that the Revelers provide would, of course, still be implemented nicely.

 

If anything, to my mind it makes far more sense to flip the Revelers' Akallabeth ability to the Woodland Realm in some way, and provide WR's siege weapons to Rivendell. Not necessarily the Akallabeth literally, given WR's history and being so comprised of Silvan Elves, but something like it, regardless. If a faction so reclusive and forest-centered as the Woodland Realm can have siege, on the other hand, being far less "advanced" insofar as not being a center of the Wise, it makes that much less sense for Rivendell to not at least have siege weapons as an option of some sort.

Rivendell in AotR is meant to be portrayed has being in deep decline in terms of Noldor military strength. That's why Elves are relatively rare in the faction and relegated to a late game unit. The actual presence of Rivendell is meant to be about song, memory, stories, and preservation. Obviously they would have likely had the knowledge and ability to create a siege engine, but that's not the point - that's not what they're intended to be about in our faction.


No fuel left for the pilgrims





0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users