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Stuns, slowing powers and knock backs on very elite units

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#1 Mex_Flaxtz

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Posted 05 May 2022 - 02:23 AM

Hi, the tópic is simple. It can happen with most factions and with many units.

In my games ive seen many things i consider unfair:

- Ranged cripples on top heroes:

For example if lurtz cripples héroes like witch king or gandalf, the player is able to catch him and he dies. This way a mid game héro totally unables the most relevant unit the faction offers, and not even being too leveled up. Its specific to ranged cripples because they doesnt take any risk for the "crippling" hero and its specific for cripples as they completely unable the hero movement.

- Low powers knock backs and speed slowings on elite "micro units":

Units such as elite horses, elite trolls or even some heroic units depend hardly on micro and are pretty vulnerable to some sort of dmg. This means u spend a huge amount of money on units that can die to a low tier power with ease.

I put an example that will make u understand it perfectly: the 2 nazguls and morgul vanguard (that are often used together) can die from a elvenking patient and some pikes near. These guys together are 1300+1300+1500+1500+2000=7600 money u lose to a 10 points power that has a simple use. Obviuusly not fair, not balanced at all.

After maybe the most clear example of it i Will write some more: running away with a gundabad troll u are knocked back by a sthealthing tree (WR 5pp) and die to arrows; u are destroying a farm with 2 attack trolls and breath of manwe makes them fly 20 seconds, lose 70% of their HP and while u fly 1 archer batallion is shooting and ends them both (maybe u are loosing 3500 money here); late game u try to run away from a Big army with 2 batallion of men slayers, u are slowed down and u lose 4000 money...

The economical consequences these low tier powers can have are awesome and obviuusly not balanced for these top heroes or hard elite "micro units" and the factions that depend of them somehow. I understand a 15pp killing those units because somehow u spend 15pp and It has a big value late game but i see a problem when not high level hero skills or low power points can suposse those big looses.

A simple idea from my "non modder" point of view would be to make these high tier units not suffer knock backs or stuns from these 5-10 points powers (in case of knock backs maybe a much much faster recovery as they take too much to stand up and keep running) and to make 2500+ cost héroes inmune to ranged cripples.

I can send tonns of replays showing this but i feel its already very clear. Feel free to give ur ideas about it.

#2 Istri

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Posted 07 May 2022 - 06:32 PM

Disagree, firstly about Lurtz. I guess he is only hero with this long range instant stop. Have you ever play Isengard vs Mordor ? This cripple is only ability to kill WK on foot. Of course you got Grima and Grishnakh with herokilling abilities but they are melee which means they are not so useful. Or you have for Gondor Denethor and he has same criple at lvl 10. Very effective but nowdays its rare to see Denethor in combat and you can take out enemy heroes with Faramir and Beregond without stun.

And about this knockback sometimes it can be decisive in battles sure thing and also slowing down abilities. But problem is not in those spells but maybe your tactical skill in battle to avoid such powers. For example you are talking about Tree spell for WR but what about change Fell Wind for MM? I have replay when enemy use it to just destroy my faction hero and it worked.

Also its very daring using monsters as frontal "tanks" vs elven factions. Cos its sure thing they gotta be focused. Same problem is with Breath of Manwë...its very effective but you have to count with this spell in battle and play more wisely. You know this complain is like "lets nerf tainted land cos enemy got buff there"

#3 Mex_Flaxtz

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Posted 14 May 2022 - 01:58 AM

Yeh, maybe the cripple things are ok because somehow most factions have a clear way to kill héroes (normally other hero abilities). I should change my mind with this.

However, I Will explain what happens with these powers: some of them are not a big issue most times, the relevant thing comes when elven factions use them late game.

Why this specific for elves and this specific for late game? Just because their dps is very good and elves are factions u cant win late game without hard micro. U need a fast/good use of whatever u choose to play. I agree u can avoid things like using 3 gundabad trolls to take same farm or pushing farms with all cav together but when It comes to take big battles its true u need to use those units together (trample with many horses together, kick with some trolls that are near, fast action with normal units...) and some very strong units totally lose their value to some of these powers. Late game things only.

Looking at wind... the nature of Wind power will always make it better vs some factions and worse vs others, it can mean some questionable moves too. Right now misty faction works all arround this power and honestly idk what i would do with wind thing but true its also included in those "tricky" powers i talk about.

About monsters efficiency vs elves i already uploaded testing replays of it and commented the results the replay got. Personally i feel they are in a bad spot vs any elf faction but u can always reach ur own conclusions by looking at them.

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