39 replies to this topic

[Shinigami]

You can state your beliefs without being rude.

[Godwin]

the thing about freedom of speech is that you have to accept that what a person says is his or her own opinion, and that opinion is as good as your opinion, and also realise that it is an opinion in the end, and not take it as the truth. if people are not sensitive to this rule of thumb, they must not be allowed to practice it

[Banshee]

Each people has their own concepts of truth and fake. What is truth for some might be false for others. There is no such concept of universal truth... At least, this is my truth... might not be yours .

[Rygar]

exactly. Threads and sections like this are meant to be constructive and get richer each opinions, steryle flames are totally useless (Sorry for my bad English)

[Ash]

Don't worry Ry. I got you

Basically, one can expect discussions to get a little heated, as people naturally want to get and keep the upper hand with their opinion, and it is in our nature to try to 'win' against the other person, be it in an argument, war or whatever.

What is wrong, as said, is to tar everyone with the brush of what little snapshot you see.

Many of us here are probably in the agreement that POTUS George W. Bush is a warmongering pig (or of words to such effect), but that doesn't mean Fen, Spence or any other American, patriotic or otherwise, is a warmongering pig too.

Similarly, just because one is muslim doth not make him a terrorist. I have lots of Muslim friends. And we frequently discuss religion, and we respect one another's opinions on such matters.

However, the point is we're free to express it. And we're free to express our reasoning behind our beliefs. EG: Bush is a warmongering pig! Why? (Of course we roughly know the answer but my point stands). A valid argument should have some point to back it up.

Whatever's said in a politically-minded discussion such as this, one should be prepared for the odd person chelping back. However that is NOT a right to flame the person countering your argument.

I hope we don't have to go into refereeing the HoP. But if it comes to that I suppose it comes to that. However I would certainly like to see the HoP continue as it is, and not go the way of its C-GEN counterpart (basically becoming a flame room).

Thankyou

~Spirali.

[Hostile]

I'd like to calm things down and return to the human aspect. It's a merrygo round of statements that only leads to more flaming. We aren't war mongers. Any President would have done the same. Very hard to retaliate against an enemy so ambiguous an our newest enemy.

The war on terror has made some strange bed fellows. It's chaos vs nation states. What we are witnessing is history in the making as our grandchildren will only know about the events of 9/11 through stories and pictures.

Lest we forget, here's a reminder...

REMINDER

[Verrückt]

heres where i come in first off ****** is an asshole he scrwed alot of people over and likes to keep the political forum one sided. Their-fore for them me calling me a nazi just becuse im german (sheer racism) i said bush a self centered egotist who bends over for right wing american corporations and insearch of their self intrests not to mention he is a puppet and dick is his puupet master bush can also be reffered to as a button. this got me banned from the political forum but i think enforcing a racist sterotype that all germans are nazi's is horrible. people should be banned for openly saying this directly to a person i think that it has the potential strength as the word "nigger"(sorry for using it) and yes hating the french is bad it may be a personal feeling but u could be emotionally hurting some-one.many people in this forum are american so theya re pro-american nationilists but their are people from other countries such as france,russia and such so keep it in mind shut yer trap if your gonna verbally punish a country or your ass is in for some flaming regardless.it pisses me off when mud gets thrown only one way.

EDIT by Arg: Read the rules. Try not to bring undesired news from other boards here, were not involutioned cannibals to get into them, were civilized.

Edited by ArgCmdr, 29 August 2004 - 02:36 PM.

[Banshee]

Any President would have done the same. Very hard to retaliate against an enemy so ambiguous an our newest enemy.

- To Iraq? Of course no! Iraq didnt attacked USA and wasn't even a real threat. Truth to be said, the Germany and France didn't do the same, along with many other countries who didn't sent soldiers to Iraq.

[Hostile]

I was referring moreso to the war on terorism. But I think the humanitary purpose was good enuff reason to go to war with Iraq. He was killing alot of people, you have to admit. That was a more screwed up country then than now. Iraq will works it way out of this. No country is rebuilt overnite.

Admittedly civilians are still getting killed but there is an enemy inside Iraq and it's not the US or the civilian population.

Edited by Hostile, 26 August 2004 - 10:58 AM.

[Ash]

So Saddam killing his own people was enough to justify the American Army killing Saddam's people?


I am reminded of the end of WW2. Poland changed hands from the Nazis into Soviet control. They didn't get their freedom, did they? It was just another thumb to be under, and Poles still were opressed.

However in this case, it's just another bunch of soldiers with guns to be killed by.

Edited by Spiral Dream, 26 August 2004 - 03:03 PM.

[Hostile]

So Saddam killing his own people was enough to justify the American Army killing Saddam's people? 


I am reminded of the end of WW2. Poland changed hands from the Nazis into Soviet control. They didn't get their freedom, did they? It was just another thumb to be under, and Poles still were opressed.

However in this case, it's just another bunch of soldiers with guns to be killed by.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Do you feel Iraq was better off with Saddam? Poland changed hands after WWII, but I wouldn't compare the US helping getting Iraq off the ground the same as the Soviet Union. We'd love to get out of there as soon as possible...

[Ash]

Do I feel Iraq was better with Saddam? I don't know. I never lived there. Thus it's not my place to judge. Nor is it yours, or Bush's or anyone else's.

Ask the regular Iraqis. They'll say it's better without Saddam, but that they'd still rather see the American troops pull out.

I compared it as it's another person ruling instead of an independent government without outside interference. Mind you, Saddam didnt have outside interference.

All this is is instead of Iraqis killing Iraqis, it's Americans killing Iraqis. That was my point.

[Hostile]

It should be clarified that Americans kill insurgents that fire on American troops first. Civilians killed are from collateral damage.

It appears that most civilians are being killed by the insurgents not the Americans. Unless you are counting the insurgents as civilians. Which considering alot are not even from Iraq, should be evluated carefully.

Your wording makes it sounds like our troops are there shooting civilians for target practice.

[Verrückt]

yes that is a bit wordy but i think hostile is missing a large portion of information insurgent tagets:

Woman without traditonal head peace and dress
Kurds
Pro-American Suni clerics
Supporters of America in Iraq

thats all true its been on the news for a long time but america is much much worse:
Carpet bombs(dumb shits)
- they hit the mountains....like the stupid dumb fucks they are they forgot sound travels over mountains quite well people around the moundatin area and in the nearby plains can no longer hear or died from their ear drums exploding.

what else they bombed a wedding thats just wonderful.ANd are miscalculation on trgets causing even more death and stray there. Most news hides this becuse american politics is one sided and complete bullshit. we had pic of a plane full of caskets and nko people to meet them at teh bottom of the plane and no press coverage this shows the morality of george bush its a big problem in oraq he made someone who has a more developed and more recently used brain well have to clean up his mess he and his father are alike.

[Deathblow Luc]

Morals are relative in war, RR...which doesnt justify collateral damage as a result and brings a whole other subject to discuss...

[Ash]

Those people wouldn't be taking up arms against you if they welcomed you, would they? They're regular Iraqis who want their country back. Same as you, Hostile, would be if the situation were reversed. You'd be resisting the occupation by foreign invaders (which is how they view the Americans).

[Hostile]

Well it was well documented that most of the insurgence are previous bath party memebrs and Saddam loyalists. Though some are Al-Quida, some foriegn fighters looking for a chance to shoot at Americans, and still some now have been reveled to be Iranian nationalists. All hoping to change Iraq into one of it's own.

It doesn't seem to be partisan iraq civilians besides the shiite. And they also have thier less than honorable intentions. BBC did a report on the population of Najaf and they were happy the Coalition was in the city and wanted Sadre outta there.

Though the protests seem legit. Pulling out now would only create a power vacuum that would make the country either a civil war, a dictitorial regime, or another Iran.

[Ash]

Though the protests seem legit. Pulling out now would only create a power vacuum that would make the country either a civil war, a dictitorial regime, or another Iran.

Wouldn't have been so if Bush had kept out.



I ask you one question.

If you were in Bush's shoes when the snot-nosed adviser came along and said: I think we should attack Iraq.

What would be the first thing you said back to that adviser?

[Hostile]

Wouldn't have been so if Bush had kept out.

It was already a dictitorial government. Bush didn't do that. At least now it has a chance of not being.

I ask you one question.

If you were in Bush's shoes when the snot-nosed adviser came along and said: I think we should attack Iraq.

What would be the first thing you said back to that adviser?

And that is a retorical question as it didn't happen that way. So how can one speculate on something that did not happen that way. Though I would have said "let me put my beer down and grab my gun" Seeing we're all war mongers anyway, right?

[Verrückt]

Personally i think right wings should pull thier heads out of their asses an get some air. and i also think america should keep its nose in its own business and not others.......eerrr sorry for being so no-chalant. thats RR politics for ya short and sweet