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How soon we forget...


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#21 Allied General

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Posted 28 August 2004 - 09:12 AM

okay fair enough, other countries have had atrocities, UK we has Omah, IRA and in Spain Madrid, but those people try to quietly remember, this is stirring up painful memories, I'm not trying to offend anyone but let them rest. Don't make it some public forum announcement.

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#22 MSpencer

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Posted 28 August 2004 - 09:55 PM

I never saw the IRA kill 3,500 people. Odd.
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#23 Deathblow Luc

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Posted 28 August 2004 - 10:15 PM

Yeah, true Fen, USA isnt comparable to the Roman Empire in that sense. But its still an hegemonic power, because nothing else can actually surpass it as a whole. What i meant with Sept 11th being a better day to remember this, was that itd be much more obvious it was done for that purpose. If not, it can easily be offroaded by non-Americans as it happened here.

Ill tell you something, during the 1976-83 period, our country lived in a terrible dictatorship, as well as most of South America, all of them military governments with extreme right-wing ideologies, anticommunism as a blind goal, and worship of the doctrine of national security -which i may clarify, came from USA-. 30,000 persons are missing since then, other thousands were murdered in various ways (tortured to death with electric instruments, left hanging from certain extremities, thrown to the widest river tied, burnt in ovens. And it was all caused by the so called "Statal Terrorism". The torture, mass murder, and xenophobia was known in the outside world, yes. Yet instead of sending a human rights comission, USA sold weapons. Which were used months later for war against one of USA´s allies.

Know whats the trick here? The rest of the world doesnt matter, as long as it fits the purpose. My country was led by anticommunist bigoted generals, possibly constituting one of the highest violation to human rights in the 20th century. But i never heard of any kind of warning coming from USA, in all the seven years, until the Falklands war.

When justice is made effective only in cases where there are obvious interests, then the world starts losing faith in hegemonic peacekeepers. Thats just whats happening now, and since the cold war.

We remember about this once a year, though. March 26th, when the military took power. Its still a hot potato to talk about, as justice hasnt been made effective, as it was expectable, and you can expect to argue about it with various persons in a year. However, many of us notice that its worthless to remember for ever. Im not saying this is the case, but if you raise memories offtime for any reason (respect included) theres little chance the pain will ever go.

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#24 Hostile

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Posted 29 August 2004 - 03:51 AM

Unless the rememberence is very relevent to some questioning America's recent activities. Without the rememberence then we forget why we are doing it and appear unjustified.

The hot potato... attack Iraq,
(rebuttal) had nothing to do with the war on terrorism,
(rebuttal) still a bad regime that promotes anti US,
(rebuttal) defenseless arab nation posing no threat to US,
(rebuttal) presented instability and anti US sentiment ALONG killing own population,
(rebuttal) still had nothing to do with US security and many regimes kill own population.
(rebuttal) need to secure area because of needed oil reserves for the world.
(rebuttel) so it's all about oil.
(rebuttal) twisted words used against us outta context.

Never ending cycle of need vs want vs reality. Makes me wish there was another superpower to assume some of the burden and guilt of making world changing decisions...

#25 Deathblow Luc

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Posted 29 August 2004 - 02:33 PM

Action has the cycle as a consequence, that happens whenever someone fills the role of peacekeper: whenever someone else gets damaged/not benefitted by it, he shall moan. Its impossible to prevent.

As for the justified rememberance, thats why i said this is not exactly the case, however, id like to see what it is like 20 years from now.

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#26 Banshee

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Posted 29 August 2004 - 04:29 PM

US was the one who helped Saddam to get the power in Iraq to stop Iran and their fundamentalist revolution. And the chemical weapon used by Saddam was sold by USA. So, instead of killing a lot of people to remove a Frankstein that they put on power, they shouldnt even have created that Frankstein... USA creates a lot of Franksteins... one of them is called Osama Bin Laden. Have you heard about that one? There is a myth that says that he ordered to kamikaze pilots to blow their planes in 2 twin towers O.o...
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#27 Ash

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Posted 29 August 2004 - 05:16 PM

I'm going to bring back a point Hostile made just now about 'if a European ally was invaded he'd don his uniform'.

Yes. I would do the same for America. I think it's a wonderful country. But we're missing the point here. America wasn't invaded. I'd also like to bring up a point that I would NOT do it for England, and I live here. Because I hate the way this country is as it is. And I stand up for only things that have been good to me. Ergo, England is not one.


And now, back to the current state of play.

Superpower making world-changing decisions? It is not the USA's God-given right to impose its own ideals, ways or anything else upon any other nation. If it directly threatens the USA, fine. But Iraq didnt. attacking Afghanistan, fine. I will agree with it. They attacked the USA. Iraq didn't.
The fact is, the USA had no RIGHT to attack Iraq, regardless of its principles.

If the Arab world is destined to implode and destroy itself. So be it.

Oil problem? Mine some of the USA's oil. There's a massive reserve lying unused. Why? Gimme an M. Gimme an O. Gimme an N. Gimme an O. Gimme a POLY and whaddaya got?

I understand your remembrance, and your reasons for it. But I don't believe that the way it was dealt with in the longer-term was the right answer. Afghanistan, as I say. Fine. Just desserts. But from there? Well, I'd be repeating myself once again to continue.

#28 Detail

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Posted 29 August 2004 - 05:41 PM

*Looks at rebel leader Luke Skywalker.*
*Looks at terrorist leader Luke Skywalker.*

Relativity.

#29 Beowulf

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Posted 29 August 2004 - 06:49 PM

US was the one who helped Saddam to get the power in Iraq to stop Iran and their fundamentalist revolution. And the chemical weapon used by Saddam was sold by USA. So, instead of killing a lot of people to remove a Frankstein that they put on power, they shouldnt even have created that Frankstein...  USA creates a lot of Franksteins... one of them is called Osama Bin Laden. Have you heard about that one? There is a myth that says that he ordered to kamikaze pilots to blow their planes in 2 twin towers O.o...

We have the benefit of hindishgt. Leaders do not when they act. How are they to know what would happen? Everyone seems to forget no one can forsee the future.

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#30 Deathblow Luc

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Posted 29 August 2004 - 06:57 PM

But future can still be estimated...

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#31 Ash

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Posted 29 August 2004 - 06:59 PM

If we choose to. But now and then I think certain unnamed parties neglect to think about tomorrow.

#32 Allied General

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Posted 31 August 2004 - 09:00 AM

if saddam was such a threat, why didn't u take em out on your 1st "war", the people rose and left them to be screwed over.

You helped Afghastian find communists but afterwards you leave em.

Then in vietnam you bomb the crap out our country (you may guess now i am british borne vietnamese) with napalm, agent orange and whatever crap and then when the public opinion turns you leave the country to the fate. Then the nuking of japan ....

do you see any of us stirring this stuff up ... ? stop finking oh this couldn't have happen to anyone else, get off your high horse of justice and stop thinking you are all innocent or whatever.
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#33 Hostile

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Posted 31 August 2004 - 09:21 AM

Actually we coldn't take out Saddam in the 1st Gulf War cause that was part of the stipulation of the coalition. Liberate Kuwait, not conquer Iraq. Funny how we listened to them now it's our fault we didn't take him out in '91. We did what our allies said to do.

And we can all see how great Vietnam turned out after we left like people want us to do now in Iraq. Nice place to live in the years after we left huh? Guess you got what you wanted from us. Leave Vietnam...than watch human rights go out the window. When you say we bombed your people than I take it you are aligned with what was N Vietnamese idealogy and not South right. Cause we didn't bomb them. Ever wonder why you live in England? You picked a bad example there guy...

That example only reinforces why we shouldn't leave Iraq.

Edited by Hostile, 31 August 2004 - 09:30 AM.


#34 Allied General

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Posted 31 August 2004 - 10:06 AM

u left cos of public opinion, sooner or later you will mess it up somehow (in iraq), i don't know how but somehow and will be forced to leave.

Also listening to your allies? Thats pretty unusual for a change :)

Why napalm and use chemical agents on the country?

more then likely you were "field-testing" weapons on us and you had all this "anti-communism rubbish propoganda.

My parents left cos the country was buggered, you screwed over the economy and left the place as a warzone.

It sickens me when americans say we will stick with you.

Cos guess what? It never happens ...

I would like to mention again, its not against american individuals but your government and its "policies" which makes me so irratated.

Edited by Allied General, 31 August 2004 - 10:11 AM.

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#35 Natus

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Posted 31 August 2004 - 10:14 AM

Ok, clam down now people, this was a 9/11 commemerattion thread, not another US political debate. I mean cmon kids, the number of times weve had this shit "US sucks", "US pawns", Iraq was right, Iraq was wrong, can we draw this too a close because the number of times ive seen these threads spiral into arguments on US policy is amazing. Heres the bottom line; wrong thread. Now please, PLEASE can we let this whole debate on US activities rest.
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#36 Hostile

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Posted 31 August 2004 - 10:18 AM

Alright, "taking deep breath" You're right Natus.

#37 Allied General

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Posted 31 August 2004 - 10:20 AM

okay yeah i'm sorry man I overeacted ..
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#38 Natus

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Posted 31 August 2004 - 12:10 PM

Apolagies aint needed, just some understanding. This thread clearly commemerates those who died that fated day. Its not a launch pad for pro and anti US sentiments. Those who died were not killed for the Iraq war, or some plan for the US, it was a terrorist attack. Every country has terrorists to deal with, if their country suffered an attack like this, would they enjoy having people talking about things like a War or such? Would they like the thread hijacked for the purpose of this discussion? Leave the discussion of wars and atrocities to other threads, instead, signify, and if you wish mourn those who died. To argue like people have here is quite disheartening and disrespectful to those who died.

Edited by Natus, 31 August 2004 - 12:12 PM.

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#39 Guest_USA hater_*

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Posted 31 August 2004 - 08:49 PM

HEY, ALL YOU YANKS!

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ROT IN HELL, AMERICANS!


Edit by Arg: Such behaviour isnt tolerated on members, nor on guests. IP has been logged and will be compared to other users to verify this just isnt some coward lame ass attempt to offend others.

Peace all, and move on.


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#40 Hostile

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Posted 31 August 2004 - 09:40 PM

*in poor southern redneck accent* "Ethel grab my shotgun, I see one of them there trespassers!" :)




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