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#1 giskard

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Posted 28 January 2005 - 06:30 AM

Thud PM's me and told me to drop by so im here.

Long post coming up. I'll mark the part when i actually start talking about AIs for ya :rolleyes:

Question: why wont the mouse work in this text boxes ? IV board usually works fine. I use it on my own site......

I love working on AI but im very busy guy so dont really have the time to join teams right now.

I do hope i can contribute some how throught my posts. Already spotted on thread thats going to help me past a current problem so i owe you guys one already.

My AI coding for DOW started 3 days ago, prior to that i was basically setting up the units to make the rogue trader rules and making sure the unitstat ratings where right.

Shame the ai plays differently on every map, hehe.

Anyway im no stranger to AIs in games but as you know all game code is different and modders end up working with half a dozen gaming languages over the course of a few years. Which has its good points, it means in these ive well adapted to picking up game code quickly and reading code ive not seen before.

I know a function when i see one, i know referal to a function when i see it. Since most of the AI code is functions i know the source fuction is in there somewhere and just need to find it to figure out how it works.

Which is the point im at right now, finding the functions i need.

I have working turrets, np there, used a cut and paste of the secondry buildings code and modified it to suite. Not eligent but it works for now.

Im currently working on the very same thing corsix posted about with the randomised turrets and ugrading them. Not gotten to the upgrades for anything else yet though. Its on my to do list.

I wanted roving repair crews to do the repairing eventually as well, yup its on my todo list.

Another thing i noticed is the designer files, the AI points at them and says not to choose units if a designer file is being used. This sounds rather interesting and could be a good way of getting the AI to surprise the player occasionally. So thats on my todo list as well.

As far as game play is concerned, currently the AI is as nasty as ever but I made a few small tweaks that seem to work fine to make bases feel like bases and be slightly more secure.

First tweak was to upgrade all basic turret damage by 20 for max and min settings.

Second tweak was to set the hit points of all turrets to 2000 (or was it 2500, i forget). This actually makes ork Warrgh banners worth building as defensive structures.

The result is one squad of orks can no longer walk up to turret and bash it without support. By default all races managed to do this so you need a stupid amount of turrets just to stop one ork mob and most maps usually dont have the room.

The damage they give out is just enough to force single squads to retreat.

The damage they recieve makes the battle for the front line worth watching and removes the repair frenzy that the player has to go through each and every time one of the turrets gets attacked. Unless its attacked by a vehicle or a heavy weapon he can usually repair at the end of the fight.

Any vehicle with a reasonable weapon can still walk through most defences so a ballance of bolter turrets and rockets is needed. Even then its not certain.

These changes make turrets feel like turrets and work like proper base defences but dont stop the AI from over running you. Your safe only from small scale attacks.

My AI uses these turrets and currently places around 10 in random locations. One AI placed 10 around its base and it held of 3 AIs attacks for 30 minutes. Slowly losing ground over that time. Time enough for the defender to rebuild some stuff anyway.

Works rather well these settings.

I didnt touch rockets at all or the bigger turret upgrades.

I did add devastors to the marine side to cut back tactical marines to a 2 hvy weapon squad. The research stuff needed all works for these. Sorted that out first.

I do still need to look at the building and addon research tree, not even started with that yet. If you guys have any good info on this please post it, id be very greatful.

Giskard

Edited by giskard, 28 January 2005 - 06:32 AM.


#2 thudo

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Posted 28 January 2005 - 07:18 PM

Congrads on making it to our site! I do hope you enjoy your stay!

I would like to see your scripts regarding how the AI builds turrets in random locations on the map - how did you accomplish that? Can we specify how many to build? DoW is generally a infantry/vehicle game so we want to keep it to its roots (all pro-players don't even bother with defenses, just troops sometimes not even needing vehicles..). I'd love to see your work. You can see ours if need be.

AI playing a little differently per map isn't a bad thing: its expected. All AI in all RTSes out there just aren't meant to be universally-adaptable to each user/officially-created map UNLESS you code it for each map out there. Not practical. Best is to compromise and try to do the best to complement all situations.

We're not gonna be touching the attrib of units/buildings.. thats up to modders who want to do that themselves. We're concerned about overall AI behaviour and tactics.

When you mentioned the tech-tree I didn't quite understand yer problem? You mean how to get the AI to upgrade Fortress addons or research the basic tech-tree? Pretty simple.. I have the SM, CSM, and Ork upgrade their Fortressess to the max. For researching the tech-tree let me know.. got that working too.. All AIs research to the max!

Again, let me take this opprounity to welcome you aboard! We're all a little stronger now with more involvement!

Edited by thudo, 28 January 2005 - 07:19 PM.

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#3 giskard

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Posted 28 January 2005 - 09:24 PM

Thanks Thud.

Already finding it interesting, hoping to contribute something soon.

BTW im a strategy fan as in the Total War series kind of fan. I dont really reguard DOW or the C&C as a serious attempt at a strategy game. I am hoping to give the player more tactical options and allow them to choose from a number of strategies before they start playing a game of DOW.

Make them think on their feet basic and not just test how fast they can repair stuff or build stuff.

Thats my goal for my mods AI.

Everything should have its strenghts and weaknesses. Every tactic have an counter tactic.

Giskard

#4 thudo

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Posted 28 January 2005 - 09:59 PM

Make them think on their feet basic and not just test how fast they can repair stuff or build stuff.


Yep.. thats the goal: to have them think on their feet. However, you need the basic foundation first for anything to happen in the advanced stage. I have always concentrated on research, teching, home-base defense and stability while ensuring good offense + exploiting resources as quick as possible. I want sustainability @ home hence the reason I code AI to ensure its survival in the practical side of things. Tactics ensure your home stays where it is, intact! However, what are tactics without a good supportative home to start with?

Tis why we all bring a balance of talent - thats why this project will succeed! Teamwork!
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#5 giskard

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Posted 29 January 2005 - 06:52 PM

Thats one of the advantages of fairly simple RTS games like DOW and several others. You can actually make a single AI that can rush or defend at the start.

Early on cheap defences are the counter for rushing if you allow the player to do either effectively. It becomes a race to build turrets or troops and the rusher has to look for the weak point so hes already moving beyond the simple rush em tactic. This is the basic ballancing level of all RTSGs if they support good base defences.

Trouble is most games never get beyond that because there is no Troops v troops ballancing. No counter to close combat and no effective heavy weapons for range fire that would allow you to do the job from a distance and force the player out of his base to find you and no stealth features to use for recon.

Thankfully DOW doesnt suffer from that, it does have ranged weapons and indirect fire as well as that first tactic right at the start of the game. So the only problem online is choosing a good player to fight against. One that will stay in the game and no disconnect if his rush fails.

You then see Rusher verse what you call a turtle battle going on and the good players on either side will adapt to the changing of events Typically a boring turle player will revert to a rusher when hes ready, but to me thats not an improvement over rushing at the start. A true base builder type of player would try and capture resources from the enemy first and slowly deprive him of troops that way because they like to turn the knife slowly and be crewl...joking :grin:

But like i said, most rushers disconnect when the initial rush fails. One poor guy in the Rome Total War forum said he had 6 players in row disco on him after their initial attack failed. But then again those games wouldnt have been very good since Rome is not a rusher game which is why they kept losing.

So its important to show the players that there is live in the game after the first 10 minutes thats both fun and interesting and make sure the game allows them to fight their way back after one tactic fails.

Thats where your project comes in. Getting the AI to do it and offer those kind of challenges if the initial attacks done work.

As you know DOWs late game is not as good as it could be.

Giskard

#6 thudo

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Posted 29 January 2005 - 10:44 PM

Yep.. things we will be considering. Quite satisfied with the play mechanics of DoW hence the reason I am thoroughly enjoying modding for it. With you help, and the help of our team, I think we can indeed super-complement all our AI/script goals!
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#7 giskard

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Posted 30 January 2005 - 07:52 PM

I agree. Even as a strategy nut, i like to play the mainstream strategy games if they have potential. Dow certainly does, how may RTSGs give you access to the AI for starters ?

The one AI 99% all games fail in too.

Giskard

#8 thudo

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Posted 31 January 2005 - 02:30 AM

Generals/ZH has easy access to the AI scripts but WorldBuilder was sooo broken and screwy it made modding such a royal pain! Now imagine trying to integrate the scripts into other mods? OUCH! Game was broken long since it ever could be mended. Sad..
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#9 giskard

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Posted 31 January 2005 - 04:18 PM

Yes.... i started modding C&C and Red Alert (original versions), my son modded generals. He told me it was different so i looked at it, pointed to a line and said change that and gave him some instructions.

Turns out its the same system they have been using for the last 15 years.

So im not surprised its broken, making that system work with todays RTSGs is probably not the wisest idea given what fans demand today.

Giskard

#10 thudo

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Posted 31 January 2005 - 07:55 PM

Not surprised. EA/Westwood always loved just resurrecting old code schemes that should have been retired long since. Guess for a massive company like EA they still need to save money even though their the largest most successful game company there is. <sigh>. Hate that about corps.. a company has a banner year yet it reflects badly on how they "skimp out" at the Christmas party. Sad..
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#11 giskard

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Posted 31 January 2005 - 07:59 PM

Yes it sucks, still the small EU and Russian companies are coming out with cool stuff these days.

Not actually seen anything truely original from the big names in a long long time.

Giskard

#12 thudo

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Posted 31 January 2005 - 10:37 PM

Other than Age Of Empires3, Earth2160, and Act Of War.. Some bloody nice RTS titles cometh! Yehaa! Then again.. I can delegate between games. ;)
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#13 Corsix

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Posted 31 January 2005 - 10:52 PM

AOE3 looks amazing!
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#14 thudo

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Posted 31 January 2005 - 11:03 PM

Yep!

http://media.pc.game...644/imgs_1.html

You'll need a 10Ghz mutli-core Machine + 3Ghz VPU! Bahhhh!


Earth 2160 - looks real sweet!!

http://www.earth2160.com


Act Of War - looks like the game Generals/ZH wasn't!

http://www.atari.com/actofwar/

e.
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#15 LarkinVB

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Posted 31 January 2005 - 11:28 PM

Sad enough AoE3 has no great interesting story/background for us europeans.

#16 thudo

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Posted 31 January 2005 - 11:55 PM

Yes actually thats true as all the action is here on the Continent. Its all during the Age Of Exploration to 1830s. The other games are more all over even Act Of War. Age of Empires2 was all about N. America whereas the first was all about Europe. Age Of Mythology was about anywhere although mostly in Greece. Now its back to good olde US of W.. err.. A. ;)
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#17 giskard

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Posted 01 February 2005 - 08:18 AM

Earth interests me, Age of Empires was always called Age of Villages here and i own 1 and 2.

The original Earth lacked artilary but thet fixed that in the expansion. To me that was really the only thing it lacked.

I like the Cossack games, old style but the battles are huge, i like epic scale battles. With or without a base.

Actually without a base people tend to play a more strategic game since they both start the game with some forces.

#18 Corsix

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Posted 01 February 2005 - 03:25 PM

Age of Empires was always called Age of Villages here

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

LOL (true)

I don't really care where a game is set - it's the gameplay that matters for me.
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#19 thudo

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Posted 02 February 2005 - 12:24 AM

Gameplay is always #1 - it makes the game a classic. Gfx are just bubblegum in the grand scheme of the biz. Sure gfx are the nice "front end" that gets your eye brow twitching when you first see previews or the back of the retail box but the longevity of a product is in the guts of playability. DoW succeeded in my eyes with not only having absolutely gorgeous gfx but the War40k universe and the gameplay is sooo extendable and expandable that it sold me when I first downloaded the first playable demo.

Its all about the gameplay and MP features/options which adds super replayability that can make it a PC classic!
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#20 giskard

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Posted 02 February 2005 - 11:17 AM

For me DOW captures the spirit of 40k nicely.

One of the only games ive seen that tried that actually did pull it off.

Not sure if id call it a classic yet but a good game, definately.

Since unreal introduced capture and hold, RTSGs have used command zones to make AIs look smart even though they are just charging towards the closest command point and slowly working their way towards the players base instead of heading straight their in the first place.

Which is an improvement but its an idea thats fast becoming old. Z Steel soldiers used a similar system a few years ago, ground control 2 used it and so fo several others.

So i dont think DOW is a classic because its not really adding anything to the RTSG market as such. Its just making good use of existing ideas.

Though i do like the rating system, thats a nice newish idea.
New to me anyway ^_^

giskard



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