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Maps and AIs


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#1 giskard

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Posted 28 January 2005 - 05:49 PM

Hello all:)

I have read about your efforts to organise bases, something we all want control over.

However there are dangers to trying to force too much on the AI. These dangers come from the fact the space for bases various a great deal from map to map so most maps simply dont have the room for a full base.

The other danger is that the first attack to get past the defences will wipe out the AI concerned. No chance of recovery.

A solution would be to use the nothreat code found in the chokepoint functions to find a safe place near by to build a secondry, minor base and have that build anything that would not fit into the main base.

I think this would help avoid problems caused my small base areas.

Since it would be a choke point, it would also be a place worth defending so turrets would have some strategic value where map movement is concerned.

Giskard

#2 thudo

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Posted 28 January 2005 - 06:57 PM

Totally agree! I've noticed that if the startpoint is small or confining, the AI will bunch everything up rather than build off expansions. This, however, largely depends on the map. I would die to see the AI build 1-3 turrets at an expansion near an enemy and congregate his troops there. Hell, thats what some of my colleagues do when conquering terrain. Take and Hold the expansion and buildup around it.

How can we go about doing this? How do we tell the AI to build "base defenses" around a chokepoint or if that chokepoint is overwhelmed and taken by the enemy that the AI will issue another chokepoint location, move troops to it and then build some static defenses around it? If it comes to StratPoints (where nothing can be built there except if an Eldar player puts a webgate there) then the troops are the "chokepoint enforcers"! heheh..

Still.. I'd love to see some minor static defense presence around both Captured/Built-upon Relics and Large Thermo Reactors (just as a deterient to attacking there) but thats down the road. DoW is about infantry/vehicle battles. Having static defenses is simply cherry-on-top! :laugh:

So how do we test this? Its one of the HOLY GRAILS of our work (other than getting engineers to repair damaged buildings when they are idle).
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#3 giskard

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Posted 28 January 2005 - 09:40 PM

The key to making the AI look like its that smart is all down to the maps features and how an AI script uses those features.

A really good map would get the most out of any AI.

Youd be able to set an objective on the map and have the AIs forces run several tactics to successfully carry out one strategy. Each units tactic would be based on what units the script wanted for the job and what units where there simply as support.

For example you might want to attack a base that had a strategic point withing multilauncher range. Your AI would see it has whirlwinds, check their range, find a spot near the base within range, attack that first and move the whirlwinds to it and then send the rest of its troops directly in to the bases front line. Once LOS was achieve the whirlwinds would open fire indirectly at the base.

Whether the frontal assault worked or not would become a mute point since its not them thats destroying the base :laugh:

This is where i think the designer files might be handy.

War is about deception and hiding your genius from the enemy so he underestimates you. Doing something stupid can often be a worth while distraction.

BTW i think everything i wrote above is actually achievable on current maps. Especially since most bases have such points within range of bases.

Giskard

#4 thudo

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Posted 29 January 2005 - 02:43 AM

Yes that would be interesting indeed. The AI as of right now, will congregate on the closets Strat or Listening Points outside my base, wait for more of their forces to arrive and assault me. Sometimes at the same time, sometimes if I move my troops out of my base they will pursue them while the second force goes for my base. Very nifty script routines I might add. :laugh:

Sure we could improve upon the work Relic has done before the expansion and if we do.. WoW! We'll be wayy ahead of the game UNLESS Relic's resident LUA coder (still no word from him.. Grrrr!) does a 1up and actually improves the AI for the expansion based on all our correspondance.

Nevertheless, the next month or two should see the AI greatly enhanced.
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#5 giskard

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Posted 29 January 2005 - 06:36 PM

I dont see relic beating you guys unless you embarris them into it.

Ive worked on AIs several times and triggered 2 patchs for 2 different games that simple added what the devs said couldnt be done simply because I proved it could be done. It happened with dark reign 2 and again with mechwarrior 4.

So sometimes mod teams have a positive effect on the devs willingness to fix things.

However, some times the devs hate you for it and will radically change the AI code making all your work useless. Something pandemic did me once.

Devs work to deadline and thats the excuse we usually get for stuff not being finished. Yet 2 weeks work from a mod team shows its not time thats the problem but a willingness to dedicate resources to some areas consistantly.

EG the AI.

Giskard

#6 thudo

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Posted 29 January 2005 - 10:47 PM

Yea I hate gawd damn "devs with attitudes"! I'm surprised, however, Pandemic (who I like) changed the AI code on an exisiting game via a patch? Seems like too much work and how the publishers wanted to invest money into that is VERY strange in the gaming biz.

Anyway.. hope Relic is a GOOD DEV and THQ a good pub! I like when they help the community build a better game rather than suck us off for more profits. Gaming passion can co-exist with big business.
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#7 giskard

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Posted 30 January 2005 - 08:02 PM

THQ have in the past take a release and forget approach.
Relic on the other hand have a pretty good reputation.

Pandemic: They said AI turrets where not possible on their own forums, so when i add them to the AI and posted the AI for download on those same forums they really had to do something.

The excuse didnt work anymore.

At the time their were still supporting the community anyway, which was good.
IF you like pandemic and perhaps have tried Dark Reign 2 then you may have seen my older work in the form of the Thirdlaw AIs, pretty simple back then but fun to make.

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#8 thudo

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Posted 31 January 2005 - 02:25 AM

Played Dark Reign 2 back in 2000 I believe.. yep.. it was good but its unfortunately old now. Not surprised about the dev's pompous attitude against modding or enhancing their work. Sad.. that best not happened in these "enlightened times of the mod community"! Or else HELL TO PAY for these devs/pubs -> get a nice fat juicy blacklist and real bad "word of mouth" to stay away.
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#9 giskard

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Posted 31 January 2005 - 04:21 PM

I love word of month and the fact fans have websites too :dry:

Brings home how much power customers have these days. Shame some companies forget that fact hehehe.

Pandemic are not the worst devs ive seen, they where in fact ok, not great but ok. Valve on the other had sound great but have changed their minds about how mods should be set up so many times i had to reinstall to refix the conflicts.

Relic appear to have done the same thing but the changes where minor and mainly in the areas concerned with running the game.

Not so bad really.

Giskard

#10 Corsix

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Posted 31 January 2005 - 05:19 PM

From my experience, Valve are good for modding compared to Relic. I can use their Hammer editor (after reading their tutorial) whereas the mission editor is impossible to me.
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#11 giskard

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Posted 31 January 2005 - 05:41 PM

Yes i agree on that point.

Valve are good with the docs and after sales support. Its just a shame they cannot make up their minds on some topics.

Giskard



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