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AI project heading wrong direction ?


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#1 LarkinVB

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Posted 31 January 2005 - 05:57 PM

I have difficulties with the direction this mod is taking.
Lots of turrests, secondary base ? Turrets build before barracks ?

Seems I completly differ in my oppinion on how a good AI should work.
A good player rarely needs any turrets and only a secondary base if the first one was destroyed. Building lots of turrets and a secondary base is a waste of resources IMO. I know that you disagree Thudo, so it seems best I will do my own set of AI instructions. I will let you know anything that I find and post here to show my improvements. Since my time is limited its more likely though that I will mod the mod to my likings.

I think the AI mod project should fix existing things first before overloading defense. Look at this :

 wraith_vypers = 
 	 {
    eldar_squad_farseer = 1,
    eldar_squad_bonesinger = 0,
    eldar_guardian_squad = 3,
    eldar_squad_banshees = 2,
    eldar_squad_dark_reapers = 4,
    eldar_squad_falcon_grav_tank = 2,
    eldar_squad_fire_prism = 1,
    eldar_squad_grav_platform = 3,
    eldar_squad_grav_platform_brightlance = 3,
    eldar_squad_rangers = 2,
    eldar_squad_seer_council = 1,
    eldar_squad_vypers = 3,
    eldar_squad_warp_spider = 4,
    eldar_squad_wraithlord = 4,
 	 }

Very bad squad limits for eldars it will choose 1 in 4. The corresponding file is full of
bad limits. These limits shouldn't be fixed but variable depending on map size/opponent. A reflexive AI is more important than building any defense IMO.

Just my 2c, no offense.

#2 Corsix

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Posted 31 January 2005 - 06:18 PM

A reflexive AI is more important than building any defense IMO.

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#3 thudo

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Posted 31 January 2005 - 07:26 PM

And I agree too. The AI needs to be offensive-minded and it is! I reduced the BuildBaseOrder list and that helped alot. I still ask the AI to build turrets at main base but that still keeps the troops coming out regardless. I find the Eldar AI to be the most lacking offensively compared to all the other races.

For the Eldar squad limits - maybe we need to look at what the other 3 civs are doing right then bump-up the Eldar to compare. It always seems the Eldar are not massing enough or perhaps slightly under.

Remember, I think we need to divy up duties for people.. As mentioned, I'm more into base design/layout, research, and resource acquisition. If we had people accomplishing various tasks then our talents can be pooled together to create something great! Right now, its a free-for-all.

We need a good symbiosis of offensive and with common-sense defense. Right now, I see the latest build being very offensive-minded, stable at home with turret protection, resources coming in, tech-tree researching giving those troops the tech-up they need to be even better at offense, and the buildings they need to go forth and drop-kick everyone.

However, DoW is all about winning on offensive that is what keeps the AI going. Most games the AI does this fine.. others its a little different when its 3vs3 or 4vs4. Its really unpredicatable. In a 2vs2 its a little more balanced but when the AI is in such huge teams it can vary.
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#4 giskard

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Posted 31 January 2005 - 07:56 PM

Im not on this team and to honest have vastly different goals from you guys.

However on the subject of eldar: think its because of the amount of research they have to do. Its causing me problems too and i want a strong AI that can withstand good attacks and doesnt take too long to get established. Chaos is the worst for me though.

On the base topic, just checking that out.

I found how vector3f and vector2f is used.

Its map coordinates, the center of the map is 0,0,0

So i guess the bottom left on the horizonal plane (if the map is 50 x 50, dont know yet) would be -50,-50, 0

Vector2f doesnt deal with Z, just X and Y.

See function BuildBuildingPlan:FindEngineerCloseToSP()

and

function BuildBuildingPlan:ObtainBuilder()

I believe it can be used for more accurate building placements.

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#5 thudo

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Posted 31 January 2005 - 08:22 PM

I upped the Eldar squads to look like this.. will test:

 fire_vypers = 
 	 {
    eldar_squad_farseer = 1,
    eldar_squad_bonesinger = 0,
    eldar_guardian_squad = 3,
    eldar_squad_banshees = 2,
    eldar_squad_dark_reapers = 4,
    eldar_squad_falcon_grav_tank = 4,
    eldar_squad_fire_prism = 4,
    eldar_squad_grav_platform = 4,
    eldar_squad_grav_platform_brightlance = 4,
    eldar_squad_rangers = 2,
    eldar_squad_seer_council = 1,
    eldar_squad_vypers = 3,
    eldar_squad_warp_spider = 5,
    eldar_squad_wraithlord = 0,
 	 },

Others have been beefed up. Will test..

Eldar, like all other races have lots to research.. Both Eldar and Ork have the most rare research items but SM and CSM have to research squad/support caps hence the reason they actually have the most. Will be tweaking these as we need.

EXCELLENT DETECTIVE WORK on the elusive VectorXf() ! If we can determine how this works we can get the AI to build a forward base to the nearest enemy and perhaps even setup 1-3 static turrets there as a battleline for the enemy to dare to cross. heheh..
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#6 Corsix

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Posted 31 January 2005 - 10:26 PM

No offence, but I could have guessed what the VectorXf did:
Vector = postion
3f = 3 floats (-> floating point numbers -> decimals) -> 3D -> X,Y,Z
2f = 2 floats -> 2D -> X,Y
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#7 thudo

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Posted 31 January 2005 - 10:35 PM

It was a little elusive to me, however. I can see that now. However, every map is different so I'm assuming if it specifies coordinates it actually is "generalizing the location" based on what StrategyPoints are in an area. Would make sense as the game is based on those StrategyPoints to determine location of enemy and where to create the chokepoint.
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#8 giskard

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Posted 01 February 2005 - 08:09 AM

I figured one of you guys would know that, but thudo mentioned it so i thought id post the details.

Not sure if you known this though, the game has a snap to terrain feature in its configs, so buildings shouldnt need the Y coordinates.

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#9 giskard

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Posted 01 February 2005 - 08:12 AM

There is feature that finds what the player is weakest against and builds only units that have the best chance of getting by the players existing defences/troops.

This feature often turns to vehicles in the late game, so you see 6 dreadnoughts and no troops attacking. It makes the AI look like its not doing anything in that late game when other teams have established them selves.

Also an AI thats losing doesnt attempt tp upgrade yet theres a few upgrades it should make to give it a fighting chance. Such as the typical troop upgrades.

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#10 thudo

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Posted 02 February 2005 - 12:32 AM

Late game, I find the AI is using both infantry/vehicles together. Where the AI fails to a degree is its not coordinated many times. Sure if you play 2vs2 the AI-only team will likely be more coordinated than when a human + AI team is involved. Generally, its good to have a balanced team game - if you try, say, a 4 human vs 2 INSANE AI game then likely the AIs will not win. Now.. play 4 human and 3-4 INSANE AIs and then yer talk'n!

We had a 4 human and 2 INSANE or 3 HARDER AI game last night (yep.. fixed the "you have an incorrect version" error thanks to Corsix!!) and we lost only one game out of 4. There were some real close calls and once each game was done I looked at the end game summary and the AIs researched close to 90% of the tech and had a tremendous amount of resources collected and spent. The games were SPECTACULAR and my colleagues were bloody concerned each time a new game started as they knew the AI routines were greatly enhanced. However, its best to have a balance of teams. There is no way a less # of AIs on a team is gonna beat a larger team of humans. Maybe when we get some innovative strategy/tactics then perhaps..

As for troops upgrades when an AI player is loosing.. hmmm.. also never noticed that: I force the AI to keep upgrading (both techtree and its own units) even when on the downside. AI still makes troops but usually by that time the AI has researched various req/power upgrades so he still has income coming in so it balances it all out.

Edited by thudo, 02 February 2005 - 12:35 AM.

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#11 giskard

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Posted 02 February 2005 - 11:12 AM

Yes the AI is pretty good at switching between building, research and troops. I quite like that about DOW.

On the topic of innovative tactics for the AI.

AIs can easily handle complex tactics where as the player can only track some much at once. So personally i'd always use tactics that involved attacking from 2 sides using the AI. Forcing the player to divide his time and thus feel the pressure.

Giskard



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