15 replies to this topic

[LarkinVB]

I tested Thudos 1.0 and found various cases of AI crippling due to turrets. Sometimes it even won't build armoury at all ! I had to add "true" in advanced/buildorderstrategyinfo.ai like this

{ "building", "chaos_armoury", true },

to force building !!!

Due to low req/power requirements for turrets forced by Thudo in advanced/buildbasestrategyinfo.ai it can happen that it will build turrets instead of armoury or nothing at all !!!

I did multiple test and found that AI with low resources having problems to build anything other than turrets.

Thudo is trying to force 6 !!! turrets in the initial build order and 15-20 for base + LPs with just 200/100 req/power. This is insane and will force some AI to be worse than default. What now ? Release as is ? I'd say give me two days and I will try to find a balance. Opinions ?

[quiet_man]

I would not hurry with release, but also we should not try to be perfect.

If we realy want to release something then:
1. Find the bugs
2. Only minor changes
until everyone agrees that it is playable

suggestion: Increase the requirements, so the ai has enough resources for armory


Suggestion for later:
turrets are good at the early but not so in late game
the requirements should raise during the game, so at very late game the ai builds only turrets when it can't build more units

quiet_man

[thudo]

I don't mind waiting but again I don't understand this at all..

Are we playing different games on different maps? I have played every game either on 1v1 2_Fallen City or 2vs2 4p_Mountain Trail and the AI has researched the entire tech tree, Armoury is ALWAYS built, all factions tested, and this is on HARDER difficulty.

The only difference I can see is that I am testing the AI with the v1.1 DoW Enhancement Mod so let me try without it. I find the game soooo much better with it but I think the results are skewed.

However, the Armoury and turrets costs the same with this v1.1 Enhancement Mod. In fact, I looked at the v1.1 Enhancement Mod and it only alters a few units but no buildings. I'll run a quick gambet of tests to see what happens but I have never EVER seen the AI not research the whole tech tree UNLESS he was overthrown early.

I'll report back momentarily..

And yep.. we need balance..

Edited by thudo, 15 February 2005 - 11:20 PM.

[giskard]

It could be how the AI does things on lower difficulty levels Thudo.

Its build queue on easy is basically capture tha flags, no guide to what to build is offered in the default DOW. At higher difficulty levels it does have a guide as to what to build.

Not sure if you guys edited those easy level build queues or not but its important to remember the AI has less of everything at those levels.

Giskard

[LarkinVB]

Try testing the AI on various 4vs4 maps. They are best as you have lots of AIs (7) per game to check. Ignore your own race, speed game and watch. With your v1.0 I had multiple AIs stuck building. I can supply replays but you should check for yourself. I did send you my tweaked version which is better IMHO (still needs more testing to assure complete build trees).

Yes, it seems we are playing different games sometimes. We have to define detailed test conditions for all of us so we don't have to argue.

[thudo]

The lower difficulties have much less turrets (Easy doesn't even use em while Standard builds only 10 throughout the game but the cost for turrets is so high they likely won't bother).

My games consist of 4 of us (Ork, Eldar, Chaos or SM, Ork, Eldar.. etc) played on a map where 3-4 Lps are nearby and thats it (no Slag Heaps for Large Reactors) using HARDER and up. I normally do not test the lower settings (remember: this AI is for Pros and not the commoner.. If the commoner wants to train with the game they use the default AI).

This is meant to be tough as nails so the lower difficulties are not priority. Lower difficulties we can easily remove the elaborate tech tree and build a small no. of turrets. I'm gonna test the AI as-is without the enhancement mod. Maybe I am missing something but I've been beyond happy with the results sofar after the last week.

Larkin.. Yea I don't get it: I've had a 8 player FFA with the HARDER AIs and it was a blast! Some would go ape-shiet and build mass armies conquering the land while some might turtle-up a bit and wait to strike with a massive force. That was a week ago - I can imagine now it would be insane. Let me do some testing, virgin-style and report back.

Edited by thudo, 15 February 2005 - 11:35 PM.

[LarkinVB]

I found that it isn't easy to get the same 'AI stuck' result while replaying a map. Sometimes it does happen, sometimes not. I made the mistake to not save the replay while stuck. Now I tried to recreate and it worked ok. It was AI on 'Last hope 4vs4' at position 2 with marines. Did not build armoury, only two turrets, temple and generator for a VERY long time. Had more of the same. Will save replay next time to show.

Now its bed time. Add my tweaks I did send or not. I'm confused but there is a problem. Perhaps race/map/start position related with a bit of random. Bye.

[thudo]

Hmm.. I had that same prob on one of the start points in 8p_Burial Grounds and it was a SM faction! He would build to an Armoury and thats that! He built a fair # of turrets but wouldn't go passed it. He was overthrown by an Eldar AI 10mins into the game. It was cool to watch although I hate to see a floundering AI.

You know..

I'm REALLY starting to suspect bad startpositions here. Thank gawd its easy to fix. I tried it on 4p_MountainTrail and wow the AIs all had more room behind there base so more could be done. Stupid.. Ork AI built stuff behind instead of forward and on sides.

Larkin.. sent ya that 4p_MountainTrail to test with..

[thudo]

Okie.. Just had a session with the AI.

Map: 4p_MountainTrail (fixed startpoints so not as close to hills/trees)
Skillset: HARDER
Average # of closeby LPs (including Relics) per StartPoint: 4
SlagHeaps (to Build Large Gens): 0
Winning Conditions: Annihilate
Features: Default game settings
Other: Ran *without* that DoW v1.1 Enhanced Mod.
Startpoints:
1 - Me (SM) [Team1]
2 - Ork [Team2]
3 - Eldar [Team1]
4 - Chaos [Team2]

Result: CRIPES ! ! !

Hard as bloody nails! Chaos/Ork just kept coming, upgraded their tech trees to the max (Armoury/Pile O Guns were there), built turrets as usual (although Chaos was a little slow at building them - he built 2 at main base then stopped then finished them off over time) but this time totally random for each LP (NICE!!!), but its unfrick'n real! My Eldar Ally was floundering a little due to being attacked so viciously and, as noted below, built a little many turrets (dunno why). He kept his own however but again 5 frick'n Defilers and 1-2 Chaos Preds!?! Shheshhh!!!

Thanks Larkin for those random LP turret scripts! Work well now although it was wierd: Eldar (on my team) built up to 5 turrets on some LPs (???).. odd.. He kept in the game and, as usual, came down to help me, enmass, when I was in trouble! W00t!

So.. much harder game to boot! Ouch!

Edited by thudo, 16 February 2005 - 07:15 AM.

[LarkinVB]

Possible that the 5 turrets at LP where near base ? So 3 of them belong to LP while 2 are base defenses ?

[thudo]

The weird thing was - they weren't. Well.. the closest LP to the base (right below StartPoint 3) the Eldar AI built 5 turrets and ones farther below built the normal 3. Maybe an anomaly? Nothing to worry about methinks.

[LarkinVB]

Deeper analysis of excessive turrets building in v1.0 :

1. Number of turrets 15 - 20

2. req/power needed just 200/100

I thought they could be only be build in tier2 (apart from the initial build order) but this is not true. Therefore the AI is more likely to build another cheap turret then to build advanced structures.

Suggestion is to increase cost, reduce maximum number and only let them build in tier2.

[thudo]

As mentioned I just tried with the above criteria..

Result: The AI still holds out from building turrets now and becomes so offensive now its sick! hehe.. Its a compromise between you and I and I think its great. Play that same game as I played above and now it seems fine. I have to play with Eldar again tonight to see what gives but both Ork/Chaos were brilliant (within their turret range, built huge armies, built all buildings they needed to conquer with)..

So in essence, AI is offensive-minded all the time now and attacks all the while scheming behind with turrets here and there. Just have to look at Eldar as a teammate.

[LarkinVB]

Did you add building additional turrets only in tier2 ? I just send you increased cost and reduced numbers.

[LarkinVB]

Eldars main problem is its infantry composition. Most of the time I only see guardians and rangers. Number of these should be definatly reduced in advanced/buildbasestrategyinfo.ai. Note that you already have some guardian squads at start.

No more than 1 ranger and 2 guardian is my suggestion.

[thudo]

I've been testing with math.random(10,15) and math.random (15.20). No difference in troop quantities... they just keep coming.

I'll fix the Eldar troop concentrations.. yea.. Guardians and Rangers probably aren't the best selections enmass. Dark Reapers, Warp Spiders, and smaller quantities of the others are best.