oh, nevermind I see it's up already (doh!)...hey, how do you edit these topics? I can't find the edit button?
Gad, shouldn't post before the first cup of coffee.
Dawn Of Skirmish v1.1 is LIVE! Yipee!
Started by thudo, Apr 24 2005 07:36 PM
339 replies to this topic
#44
thudo
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Posted 02 May 2005 - 01:31 PM
I don't think Guests can edit.
(I am using Firefox and it seems to work ok)
Flenser
Nope ya have to be logged in to edit yer message there Flensie.
We're gonna get going on script stuff starting today. Sofar I have you and Corsix to do raw theoretical work. The scripts right now are amazing thanks to Larkin and after further tweaking on the weekend they're even better. What we have to accomplish is only the good stuff now and looking very forward to working with you two.
TuD.
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#45
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Posted 04 May 2005 - 11:04 PM
I have to hand it to the AI..just finished a game of deadmans crossing--SM vs SM--and using my usual build barracks right by my side of the river (if you can survive the rush it works great) usually totally perplexes the AI and I completely dominate taking the rest of the map. This time, after I took the enemies beach with some resistance (to the north), I was met with 3 dreads and army with FC.
This shows something else is going on, a good use of resources I would say. The battle was mine, but hard fought...and alot of fun! I've played vanilla AI enough to really tell the difference here, in how the Ai is using it's resources.
This shows something else is going on, a good use of resources I would say. The battle was mine, but hard fought...and alot of fun! I've played vanilla AI enough to really tell the difference here, in how the Ai is using it's resources.
Edited by oozish, 04 May 2005 - 11:05 PM.
#46
thudo
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Posted 04 May 2005 - 11:32 PM
Yeaaaaa but wait til you try the beta5! I'm putting the finishing touches, retweaked the unitstats.ai to give Eldar the faction they finally deserved + fixed up some of the missing weapon addons the AI never upgraded too since Relic removed them. Grrrrrr.. now we're gonna really be cook'n! Tested all the changes against 1vs1 SM vs SM and could not beat em. Testing other factions 1vs1 then 3vs3... Keep ya posted.
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#48
thudo
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Posted 05 May 2005 - 03:06 PM
Download is ready but I'm still tweaking it. AI is far better now at bringing out the DR/WS now although if I give the WS too high a rating they'll be the only thing spammed (looks real odd to see the AI spamming WS after all these months of just seeing Guardians and Banshees!).
However, the game feels more cleaner now during gameplay. Now that prioritizations are set more effectively throughout, the AI uses a more balanced army.
I sent up another beta this morning putting back the script "ETA = 50".
Just remember: some maps (ie. Meeting of Minds) the AI really struggles due to the massively confining corridors although he was real REAL tough at a few times (1vs1 SM vs HARDER Eldar) and wow it was nasty. Eldar, however, is inheritently weak anyway so likely not a good test UNTIL tactics are implemented.
I killed him eventually by just holding off almost half the map with guarding marine squads and turrets.. sent in 10 HellfireDreads to keep em busy.. then four Landraiders after a minute to stir things up then the marine squads soon followed. Good fight but AI still thinks too much of the "massing mentality". No tactics.. yet!
Mind you, going through the unitstats.ai and re-implementing weapon addons for some units helped alot (ie. giving the Eldar Vyper the rocket upgrade now makes it super-nasty in packs.. Ouch!!).
However, the game feels more cleaner now during gameplay. Now that prioritizations are set more effectively throughout, the AI uses a more balanced army.
I sent up another beta this morning putting back the script "ETA = 50".
Just remember: some maps (ie. Meeting of Minds) the AI really struggles due to the massively confining corridors although he was real REAL tough at a few times (1vs1 SM vs HARDER Eldar) and wow it was nasty. Eldar, however, is inheritently weak anyway so likely not a good test UNTIL tactics are implemented.
I killed him eventually by just holding off almost half the map with guarding marine squads and turrets.. sent in 10 HellfireDreads to keep em busy.. then four Landraiders after a minute to stir things up then the marine squads soon followed. Good fight but AI still thinks too much of the "massing mentality". No tactics.. yet!
Mind you, going through the unitstats.ai and re-implementing weapon addons for some units helped alot (ie. giving the Eldar Vyper the rocket upgrade now makes it super-nasty in packs.. Ouch!!).
Edited by thudo, 05 May 2005 - 03:09 PM.
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#49
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Posted 06 May 2005 - 02:13 PM
Yes, I noticed that when I gave the Eldar a few once overs (battle marshes and Fallen City) in which while it did have a more fleshed out unit selection, it didn't prove any more challenging. A big problem for Eldar play in general is that the army must be tweaked to fit the opponents army. Did relic implement any functions to detect the race that the opponent is using, because it if did that would be the best route for Eldar AI. It's not about balanced units, but instead centered around the "hot knife through butter" type of play. SMs and CSMs pitted up against dark reapers is almost always a losing matchup, and the same can be said about Orks against WS.
A function to return a value corresponding to the opponents race would be the most helpful thing possible for fleshing out Eldar AI (heh, dunno if such a function exists unfortunately, if it does, huzzah)
A function to return a value corresponding to the opponents race would be the most helpful thing possible for fleshing out Eldar AI (heh, dunno if such a function exists unfortunately, if it does, huzzah)
#50
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Posted 06 May 2005 - 02:23 PM
Since Eldar are the weakest they are the best to test against. Ork is second due to the Banner requirments while both SM and CSM are brutual no matter what.
Make sure you download the correct build though.. its now v1.2b5c. I have to clean the dir out as its looking semi-cluttered.
Btw, played 2 1vs1 SM vs Eldar HARDER on BattleMarshes and the first game I got my clocked cleaned! Second one I went straight to turrets 2 on left fortified LP and 2 on right one + scout guards fully reinforced. Helped alot this time and held them off until I got more marines.
Mind you, the AI will drastically capture LPs now much quicker so watch out for this. He's nasty trying to expand.
But yes.. Eldar, then Ork are the way to go. Since the revised unitstats.ai the Eldar now field DRs and WSs much faster and generally are now ready to have some tactic-code implemented.
Thanks for testing guys! Keep us posted on yor battle experiences.
Remember: 1vs1 AI is much harder to code then team-based AI. Note your alliance games and you'll see what I mean.
Make sure you download the correct build though.. its now v1.2b5c. I have to clean the dir out as its looking semi-cluttered.
Btw, played 2 1vs1 SM vs Eldar HARDER on BattleMarshes and the first game I got my clocked cleaned! Second one I went straight to turrets 2 on left fortified LP and 2 on right one + scout guards fully reinforced. Helped alot this time and held them off until I got more marines.
Mind you, the AI will drastically capture LPs now much quicker so watch out for this. He's nasty trying to expand.
But yes.. Eldar, then Ork are the way to go. Since the revised unitstats.ai the Eldar now field DRs and WSs much faster and generally are now ready to have some tactic-code implemented.
Thanks for testing guys! Keep us posted on yor battle experiences.
Remember: 1vs1 AI is much harder to code then team-based AI. Note your alliance games and you'll see what I mean.
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#51
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Posted 06 May 2005 - 10:14 PM
Heh, updated to the new version, you were most definately right about SM and CSM. I gave SM AI a while on battle marshes, was something fierce, gave me a pretty good run for my money. Just looking over the replay the AI is easily playing at a much higher level then it's previous incarnation (it makes the relic AI look like a joke if you wanna gauge by the standard AI XD), and if you'd like to see it, I kept a replay of the match. All I can say is that it's shaping up into something far beyond what it originally was (redundant, I know, but man...it's something). In any case, I'll test Eldar and Orks and report back on how it goes.
Just gave Eldar a go, and here are some things I observed that bothered me. I noticed that the AI had a tendency to activate fleet of foot while engaging an enemy, in either ranged or upclose combat, and then continue to fight while in FoF mode, thus decreasing it;s effectiveness. Another issue I saw was that it was having some unheard of infatuation with building it's seer council. While the Seer council is indeed a valuable unit for disruption purposes, when it was on the losing side of the battle, it built the Seer council a number of times, only to have the 3 man squad decimated, rather then go for Reapers, or rebuild the far far far more precious Farseer (It's valuable, but only in certain situations, as it is most definately not a "core" unit and is by no means worth passing up the farseer, or hard counter infantry for as it is meant to supplement existing forces). There may be other issues, but I'll have to observe in more detail on my next test.
Also, read a few of the other threads, the expansionistic "attitude" the AI has developed is definately a plus as far as difficulty goes, as it provides pressure upon the player right from the start (though it loves to attack from the direction you're furthest away from >.>) I might try a game on Insane later...but I am fairly sure this build of the AI would stomp me without much trouble.
Just gave Eldar a go, and here are some things I observed that bothered me. I noticed that the AI had a tendency to activate fleet of foot while engaging an enemy, in either ranged or upclose combat, and then continue to fight while in FoF mode, thus decreasing it;s effectiveness. Another issue I saw was that it was having some unheard of infatuation with building it's seer council. While the Seer council is indeed a valuable unit for disruption purposes, when it was on the losing side of the battle, it built the Seer council a number of times, only to have the 3 man squad decimated, rather then go for Reapers, or rebuild the far far far more precious Farseer (It's valuable, but only in certain situations, as it is most definately not a "core" unit and is by no means worth passing up the farseer, or hard counter infantry for as it is meant to supplement existing forces). There may be other issues, but I'll have to observe in more detail on my next test.
Also, read a few of the other threads, the expansionistic "attitude" the AI has developed is definately a plus as far as difficulty goes, as it provides pressure upon the player right from the start (though it loves to attack from the direction you're furthest away from >.>) I might try a game on Insane later...but I am fairly sure this build of the AI would stomp me without much trouble.
Edited by Markoso, 06 May 2005 - 10:38 PM.
#52
thudo
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Posted 06 May 2005 - 10:41 PM
Sounds like I need to drop the frequency at which the Seer Council comes out and keep the FarSeer as is. I don't understand the FoF issue - it does disengage FoF just before going into combat. Will check that and report back. Glad things are going otherwise. I had a feeling I got it right with the AI now. heheheh
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#53
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Posted 06 May 2005 - 10:56 PM
Markoso, i've found INsane to be maddening and frightening...and just too much. I"d be very interested in seeing an insane replay with this AI if the player beat the AI. I've done it before with vanilla DOW, but I usually have to come up with some cheap tactic...usually a very early rush...to win.
With this AI I tried playing regularly like I would at harder, and the eldar really beat me....badly. It was scary.
With this AI I tried playing regularly like I would at harder, and the eldar really beat me....badly. It was scary.
#54
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Posted 07 May 2005 - 01:26 AM
Due to an unlucky coincidence, my favorite, and best map is one that the AI is adverse to, but I beat the insane Space Marine 1.2b5 AI on it all the same >.> (That map being meeting of minds). I saved the replay, and yeh, it was rather rough, but I whittled em down and managed to outresource the AI by keeping a firm clamp on the critical locations and just...siphoning off its SPs as I could.
#55
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Posted 07 May 2005 - 07:50 AM
Beat harder AI (marines) at meeting of minds. After I survived its initial attack it never attacked again. While confronted with 2 full chaos marines squads, 2 cultists with GL and a CL it only fielded a single marine squad, some scouts and a FC all waiting to be killed. It had build lots of buildings including 3 turrets but forgot to build enough units.
So start was a challenge but afterwards AI was passive. Seems it never reached attack_rating limit due to wasting resources with buildings. Please stop that stupid turret building. I recognized there are still three of them with the initial build queue. Wasted resources as I never planned to enter his base without rockets which come early enough.
So start was a challenge but afterwards AI was passive. Seems it never reached attack_rating limit due to wasting resources with buildings. Please stop that stupid turret building. I recognized there are still three of them with the initial build queue. Wasted resources as I never planned to enter his base without rockets which come early enough.
#56
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Posted 07 May 2005 - 12:05 PM
I"ve noticed this trend too, Larkin, and mentioned it before. If you survive the first hit, seems like the AI turtles up in base.= passive. but I haven't been able to play the latest build much to see if it's still doing it. Sounds like it is.
Edited by oozish, 07 May 2005 - 12:06 PM.
#57
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Posted 07 May 2005 - 12:14 PM
I believe it was stated that Meeting of Minds is just a poor map to play the AI on, some such about start points. And I'll agree, the turrets don't do a lot to help the AI when you factor in their cost, since at most they prove themselves to be a minor nuisance, but never anything that has saved the AI's ass enough to win a match.
#58
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Posted 07 May 2005 - 12:25 PM
I vote for a single turret in initial build order maximum. This might help a bit at start but won't waste too much for midgame. AI can build more if it has abundant resources later on.
Please check eldar AI with the latest build. I found it lacked building vehicles and didn't build the spiders against orks Thudo was promoting.
Please check eldar AI with the latest build. I found it lacked building vehicles and didn't build the spiders against orks Thudo was promoting.
#59
thudo
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Posted 07 May 2005 - 03:38 PM
Look people.. I don't know what the heck is wrong with the Eldar as I've played them and had DR/WSes + Vehicles.
What I will do is disable Turret building at main base to field more troops at the start and cut down turret building again. Look for this build shortly on the site.
Thanks Larkin for your comments - sometimes I wonder what games you play and you probably wonder mine.
I don't see how changing the "rating =" values mostly for Eldar would cause problems. In fact, they make sense the way they are now! I will post them to you all to see if something gives. Maybe I need 2-3 opinions on it.
Thanks all for testing.. good to finally get more real-time critiques!
What I will do is disable Turret building at main base to field more troops at the start and cut down turret building again. Look for this build shortly on the site.
Thanks Larkin for your comments - sometimes I wonder what games you play and you probably wonder mine.
I don't see how changing the "rating =" values mostly for Eldar would cause problems. In fact, they make sense the way they are now! I will post them to you all to see if something gives. Maybe I need 2-3 opinions on it.
Thanks all for testing.. good to finally get more real-time critiques!
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#60
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Posted 07 May 2005 - 08:11 PM
There are problems, these are not dependant wether you see them or not. I tested v1.2b5e and v1.1 on my specail test map where AI is boxed so you can time its build speed without combat. v1.2b5e took about double time than v1.1 to build support portal. It's exactly what I noticed before late support portal which can lead to no vehicles.
I'm pretty sure its caused by the changed ETA. I think you are now forcing quick builds, delaying builds which do have prerequisites.
I hope/wish Flenser will check this problem so I don't have to argue with you again Thudo. Wish you would better test your builds. Time support portal and you will see. Time spiders too. So we don't need to talk about facts.
I'm pretty sure its caused by the changed ETA. I think you are now forcing quick builds, delaying builds which do have prerequisites.
I hope/wish Flenser will check this problem so I don't have to argue with you again Thudo. Wish you would better test your builds. Time support portal and you will see. Time spiders too. So we don't need to talk about facts.
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