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UPDATE: v1.2RC5 New Code->Jul 18.2005


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#1 thudo

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Posted 12 July 2005 - 01:23 PM

This is regards to this mornings code submission sent to the coders/testers for quick appraisal. Its in regards to finally nailing the issues with v1.30 in regards to being slow upgrading/teching to higher tiered units. As mentioned in the email, I basically told the AI for all four factions to build key buildings at certain moments of opporunity.The result was staggering and a complete reversal of that BS brought on by v1.30 (which retards the AI in quickly teching up whenever possible).

I tested and tweaked for 2-3 hours, tried a large 3vs3 game on HARDER+Standard Resource Rate, worked fine.. Played like v1.20. I found absolutely zero issues. If the AI lost one of those buildings optimized by the code last nite, that building got re-built in the normal course of time.

So take the day, do a quick check, let me know your thoughts on some quick playtesting. I don't think you'll be remotely dissapointed. :dry:
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#2 Guest_Guest_*

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Posted 12 July 2005 - 01:57 PM

I just installed 1.3 DOW with your latest build, harder, battlemarshes. The AI certainly improved using 1.3, and eventually built 2 defilers...this was by the time I had built 1 dreadnaught, so it wasn't too far behind (though why do the defilers always hang around in base? They need to get out of there).

That in itself speaks well for this build and is certainly more promising than before. I"ve always thought the 1.3 build and our AI worked well for the infantry schemes, but their infantry didn't upgrade any weapons by the time I had my heavy weapons upgraded at the armory. AFter an early assault on my base (where I had a upgraded LP, squad, and sentry to ward them off). I took control of the map and entered their base where they had built 2 sentries (I missile, 1 Antiinfantry) and had 2 defilers hanging around not being very aggressive.

MOre testing is needed, but it was fun and seems a big improvement for those wanting 1.3 and this patch. I'll test this on valley of korne next, which was my big test map for vehicle building last time and I remember the chaos built ZERO vehicles, so I'm going against that weak race to test it next.

#3 thudo

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Posted 12 July 2005 - 02:22 PM

Err.. Larkin? :lol:

Hmm.. Defilers hanging around in main base.. odd.. That never seemed to be the case here. Usually when I peek in on the Chaos AI the combat units are immediately out on the field converging on their choosen LP chokepoint. Yer right about the units not so readily upgrading units to better weapons but it isn't too bad as them not getting higher-tiered units as quick as a good player can. That could not go unnoticed by anyone who would play the mod.

I'm unclear how to get squads to update their weapon systems faster but wasn't that the case in v1.20 anyway - they were still slower at updating? Of course, throw cash at em and then they'll upgrade.

Btw.. other good changes I did:

Based on a fab Flenser code for doing addons.. I gave the Orks the ability to more easily update their Fortress with the big HQ addon (without such they would either never update or take forever). This has the desirable effect of all the higher-tiered units coming out faster (was finally nice to see especially on HARDER skill).

Also, I allowed the Eldar to research their Tier2 upgrade so the Support Portal comes out faster (which also took too long - now it shouldn't).

One thing..

I noticed something extraordinarily good during gameplay -> THE AI USES ATTACK-GROUND WITH HIS SIEGE UNITS!!! Anyone notice this? Watch the AI use an SM Whirlwind or Ork Looted Tank and he'll fire it half-way across the map (which is obviously Attack-ground as both those don't have that range normally with Attack-Move). HOW IS THIS POSSIBLE? Was this scripted or did v1.30 activate something as its shear brilliance! I was blown away!!! Gawd was it annoying though. :dry:

So.. keep the feedback coming.. I'm estatic at present..

Edited by thudo, 12 July 2005 - 02:23 PM.

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#4 oozish

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Posted 12 July 2005 - 03:03 PM

ah, that's irritating. No, that's me, oozish. Just played valley of korne again and choas made 0 units while I got to deep tier 2 and could have gone to tier 3.

It's always a question as to whether it's a tactic that keeps them from building vehicles (spending too much resources on an early attack) or it's something broke.

Anyway, still no vehicles on valley of korne here...SM Vs Chaos on harder, 1.3 and latest build. The infantry is tough though, and here I did see them upgrade to plasma ect. Almost lost my base to infantry in the beginning, so it's good fun but again, as I've said, I saw no vehicles and I would have with DOW 1.2.

I'll keep testing, but done for a bit...

#5 Flenser

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Posted 12 July 2005 - 03:06 PM

I'm unclear how to get squads to update their weapon systems faster but wasn't that the case in v1.20 anyway - they were still slower at updating? Of course, throw cash at em and then they'll upgrade.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

This is doable - my code for Assassinate forces the squad to which the Commander is attached to upgrade its weapons immediately. Tankbusta skirmish squads do much the same thing. Once v1.2 is out the door I will be posting all my recent work.

Glad to hear about the artillery - I love it when intractable problems solve themselves!!! :dry:

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#6 thudo

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Posted 12 July 2005 - 04:16 PM

Oozish.. What? No vehicles? Porpostorous!! Try 2p_Fallen City and let me know. He makes plenty of vehicles on that one! That doesn't make sense. Also try 2p_Blood River or whatever its called. I'll try it tonight. Also.. please try a 2vs2 match. 1vs1 is nice but we need to see how AI teams play.

Disapointed in your result as I tried 3 maps last nite and they all built vehicles (Chaos) as fast as v1.20. I played mostly team games.

Btw, anyone ever checked if Relic changed the criteria on Resource Gathering Rates? From HARDER -> INSANE the AI seems to totally rely on cash to get anywhere but moreso in v1.30. Did something change between v1.20->v1.30 in regards to skill level effecting inbound cash rate? Did they maybe decrease it slightly in v1.30?
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#7 thudo

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Posted 12 July 2005 - 11:57 PM

Update: I've played on 2p_Blood Riverand 2p_Valley of Khorne against both Eldar and Chaos (both set to HARDER, Standard resource collection). I must say: indeed the AI is tons better than before. I simply cannot win against Chaos on Valley of Khorne. He just takes over quickly and once the first Defiler shows up in the first 3-4 mins I'm in deep doo-doo. Now imagine playing against 2vs2 on a team? Ouchh!! Units got upgraded decently (didn't notice any slowness to update squads with better weapons) and whats great is the armoury/tech building for the factions comes in much faster now and thus they compete alot better.

Overall.. very pleased.. Anyone else with stories from the front?
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#8 oozish

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Posted 13 July 2005 - 01:05 AM

Update: I've played on 2p_Blood Riverand 2p_Valley of Khorne against both Eldar and Chaos (both set to HARDER, Standard resource collection). I must say: indeed the AI is tons better than before. I simply cannot win against Chaos on Valley of Khorne. He just takes over quickly and once the first Defiler shows up in the first 3-4 mins I'm in deep doo-doo. Now imagine playing against 2vs2 on a team? Ouchh!! Units got upgraded decently (didn't notice any slowness to update squads with better weapons) and whats great is the armoury/tech building for the factions comes in much faster now and thus they compete alot better.

Overall.. very pleased.. Anyone else with stories from the front?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I think maybe what's happening is my strategy vs. the AI is simply depriving it from storing enough resources to make the machines. In korne the chaos made NO vehicles, but I probably really sapped their resources when they gave it all to attack my base, once I chased them to mid map I had the game. I work hard to keep them from keeping their criticals or I use ASM to dethrone their own LP's even if it costs me the squad. Still no vehicles in my experience in this 1vs1 map.

Secondly, I've seen the defilers ALOT hanging out in base. I wish they'd come out but I see them in base alot. I think sometimes the problem is the AI is building structures around them that keep them from getting out (hemming them in, if you will).

The infantry battles feel alot better than 1.2, but I still don't see the vehicle production in my LIMITED EXPOSURE to 1vs.1. (gotta hedge that comment as I've taken alot of heat for this).

Cheers.

Edited by oozish, 13 July 2005 - 01:06 AM.


#9 thudo

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Posted 13 July 2005 - 01:47 AM

The "units getting stuck at main base" is a Relic problem. I tell all modders to ensure a 2.000 value of space between buildings to allow for movement of vehicles. AI Bottlenecking has been around forever though.. its just the nature of scripting. Further, Valley of Khorne is yet another map with limited build space so the AI tries its best. However, I just don't see the bottlenecking on that map: played it twice against a HARDER Chaos and he never had one single Defiler/Pred stuck.

I'm sooo glad we have a remedial fix for v1.30 angsts. I just can't have shiet like that when our project is all about making it the best challenge possible. At least we have an intermin fix -> expansion is almost 2months away. Yipeeee!!!
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#10 oozish

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Posted 13 July 2005 - 02:42 AM

The "units getting stuck at main base" is a Relic problem. I tell all modders to ensure a 2.000 value of space between buildings to allow for movement of vehicles. AI Bottlenecking has been around forever though.. its just the nature of scripting. Further, Valley of Khorne is yet another map with limited build space so the AI tries its best. However, I just don't see the bottlenecking on that map: played it twice against a HARDER Chaos and he never had one single Defiler/Pred stuck.

I'm sooo glad we have a remedial fix for v1.30 angsts. I just can't have shiet like that when our project is all about making it the best challenge possible. At least we have an intermin fix -> expansion is almost 2months away. Yipeeee!!!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>



No, you're right, on korne they weren't getting 'stuck'; they just weren't getting built at all in my last game. It was on battle marshes where they were stuck, and of course anything on railway is a joke for this. I've also noticed the same thing on most of the 1vs1 player maps, especially meeting of minds as they build a machine cult right behind the LP and then the defilers just sit there. This is old news of course. What I originally wanted you to know is I saw two defilers on battlemarshes and they didn't look stuck, but they weren't leaving the base. I've noticed this several times; even with 1.2. So I'll have to test 1.3 more to look into it more.

Edited by oozish, 13 July 2005 - 02:44 AM.


#11 oozish

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Posted 13 July 2005 - 03:08 AM

You know, for AI, it sure can be silly sometimes. Just played blood river and the AI elected to build a armory and a machine cult right in the river by my base. I'd make fun of them but i lost! hehe. Still, I'm not sure if that's stupid or brilliant but in this case I got owned (SM SM; Harder; Blood RIver)

#12 thudo

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Posted 13 July 2005 - 03:34 AM

Thats a severe complement then! :dry: Getting owned using our AI on game code v1.30 using only HARDER skil is a nice boost! hhehehe.. At least things are working much MUCH better until we get game code that fixes this whole mess.
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#13 oozish

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Posted 13 July 2005 - 02:36 PM

I'm not trying to rain on your parade, as I'm sure the 2vs2 and up is better, but I just played blood river vs. orks and they built no vehicles. They had plenty of time to do it too.

I'm not sure I'm seeing the same advances in vehicle building as you claimed, and certainly I haven't on valley of korne and blood river. The ONLY game I've seen the AI build vehicles on with 1.3 DOW and your latest build is on battlemarshes and that was only 2 defilers that hung around in base as I said earlier.

I really prefer 1.2 quite a bit. But I'll play more of this and see if I can spot a vehicle or two in this infantry heavy universe relic has created.

#14 thudo

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Posted 13 July 2005 - 02:46 PM

heheh... yeaaa I have no clue what game yer playing. I played 2p_BloodRiver against HARDER Eldar and he had vehicles up the ying-yang! :p I played Valley of Khorne twice against a HARDER Chaos and he had Defilers on my butt within 3-4 mins. Perhaps it does have something to do with your aggression against the AI but on Valley of Khorne the AI should have plenty of resources to use (players start with 4 LPs + Relic to capture) thats why I don't get it.

Its almost like yer playing something different.

Oozzish, does he at least build a Machine Pit/Sac Circle? Something is wrong.. Yer running HARDER with Standard Resource Gathering + Standard Startup Resources?
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#15 Guest_Guest_*

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Posted 13 July 2005 - 03:44 PM

I just played valley of khorne and my lackluster approach made me loose quickly. First I was attacked by infantry and lost two points. After I thought I recovered I was attack by the first defiler (chaos vs chaos) => gg

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Posted 13 July 2005 - 03:46 PM

Was me, larkin. I suggest Oozish shows us a replay of him vs chaos at valley of khorne without vehicles. I guess he is just agressive and AI won't have map control.

#17 thudo

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Posted 13 July 2005 - 03:51 PM

Larkin.. I'm both shocked and bewildered + my image of you is shattered.. :p Such words like "my lackluster approach" are unbecoming of a solider of your stature. ;) Usually your the one who can best the AI even in v1.30.

Anyway, sofar I'm very much liking the 1.5days of quick beta for the latest build. I think we can fully sign off, quickly re-doc the Dox, and package this sucka for release. Now I'm more confident then ever we have a good workaround for the v1.30 AI prereq fiasco. At least we have a product that performs far better now under v1.30 although it seems semi-lackluster to Mr. Oozish Super-Agressive Rusher himself. heheeh.. :dry:

Edited by thudo, 13 July 2005 - 03:52 PM.

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#18 Obake

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Posted 13 July 2005 - 04:14 PM

The infantry battles feel alot better than 1.2, but I still don't see the vehicle production in my LIMITED EXPOSURE to 1vs.1.  (gotta hedge that comment as I've taken alot of heat for this).

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


;)

So long as you remind everyone that it's still a hell of a lot better than default AI Oozish, you'll never hear another peep out of me! :p

In reading through these posts though, I think that you, Thudo and Larkin are on the right track with why you aren't seeing many vehicles. Your play style sounds like it's built around a De-cap/harrass strategy, and the AI isn't handling it well. As a result, they don't build up enough of a resource base to build the vehicles.

Of course it would be easy to suggest that you change your tactics, but that would end up just taking away from how you want to play the game. Try this instead.... either bump the resource rate to High, or try a Quickstart. I'll guarantee you that with a Quickstart, you're going to see vehicles faster than you would believe on Harder, as I saw this even under DOS v1.1. I've played a few Quickstart games with 3 human players (2 SM, 1 Chaos) against 3 Ork AI players under 1.1 and we were smoked in a heartbeat. Only after I switched to Eldar were we able to hold our own and eventually beat 3 Orks on Bloodshed Alley.

With resource rates set to High, you'll also find that the AI will have the resources to tech fast enough to deal with your De-cap/Harrass strategy. Maybe the guys could script a response to this, or even a De-Cap/Harrass strategy for the AI to use and you might see the tables turned, but I'm guessing from what little I know that this wouldn't be easy to do.

At least with the two options I suggest, you won't have to modify your playing style and can still get a challenge from the AI on VOK or any other 1x1 map of your choosing.

Just a thought...........

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Posted 13 July 2005 - 04:34 PM

2 observations :

1. I noticed a single AI cultist/scout/slugga squad standing near hq in a 4vs4 at Kasyr Lutien doing nothing while other squads of the same AI was fighting elsewhere. Any idea, Flenser ? They were 3+ strong so it couldn't be the new code preventig small squads to be included in attacks.

2. Where the %$&/( does the AI get the command to build two turrets at home ? I won't start another discussion about the usefullness (two is ok for me) but I can't find the code ??? It's not in buildorderstrategyinfo.ai as it used to be. Were is it hidden, Thudo :p ?

Larkin

#20 thudo

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Posted 13 July 2005 - 04:52 PM

No no.. its not hidden.. we discussed this awhile back as it was best for the AI to detect how far an enemy was and then determine if turrerts should be built at main base to circumvent rushes.. here is the code:

File: buildorderstrategy.ai
function BuildOrderStrategy:__init( info ) super( info )
   if map_size == small or closest_enemy < 275 then
        aitrace("Map is "..map_size)
        aitrace("Closest enemy is "..closest_enemy.."metres away")
        if cpu_manager.player_stats:GetPlayerRaceName() == "space_marine_race" then
            table.insert ( self.info, { "building", "space_marine_turret_bolter" } )
            table.insert ( self.info, { "building", "space_marine_turret_bolter" } )
        elseif cpu_manager.player_stats:GetPlayerRaceName() == "chaos_marine_race" then
            table.insert ( self.info, { "building", "chaos_turret_bolter" } )
            table.insert ( self.info, { "building", "chaos_turret_bolter" } )
        elseif cpu_manager.player_stats:GetPlayerRaceName() == "eldar_race" then
            table.insert ( self.info, { "building", "eldar_support_platform_scatterlaser" } )
            table.insert ( self.info, { "building", "eldar_support_platform_scatterlaser" } )
        end --orks already have shooty buildings
    end
    aipoptrace("TurretBuild")
It does work decently. No issues I've seen.

Edited by thudo, 13 July 2005 - 04:53 PM.

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