15 replies to this topic

[Danimator]

Hi guys,

Hopefully you will be able to shed a little light on this for me as I would like to get my facts straight.

Am I right in assuming that:

a. Mods in general can be merged so for instance you could play Daemonhunters, Cadian, Tua all at the same time as a multi mod, with all mods drawing what they need out of the collective data folders. Data is looked for in the first folder and then if not found the second folder is searched and so on.

b. AI folders can't do this in the same way. Whichever Data folder (containing an ai folder) is listed first takes preceedance. If data is not found in the first folder then it gives up? Why doesn't it look at the other ai folders?

It must be able to do this to an extent as if you are using multi mods and list a mod with no ai at all first it still reads either the ai from the next data folder in line or it defaults to the w40k ai (not sure which here, I'll test this later). This of course means that the first mod doesn't start building and just sits out the game.

My big question here is if only one ai folder is ever in charge of a mod or a combination of mods how are people going to play Dawn of Skirmish with Mods that have their own ai? or can't they at this stage?

or can the ai read from two (or more) ai folders after all?

N.B. Just previewed this and I just hope you don't take this as criticism as it's not intended, I'm a huge fan as you know just in need of enlightenment.

[Danimator]

Sorry that was me above, the system logged me out somehow and I can't edit the post.

[thudo]

Well I can't give you the LONG answer (it involves lots o scripting) but the short one will suffice..

YES ! ! ! !

Mods can be merged with unified AI - I've tested and it works. Have I tested under v1.30? Not yet.. In theory it should work.

These are the root essential .ai files that will link mods together, Skirmish AI-wise:

cpu_manager.ai
unitstats.ai
attackstrategyinfo.ai
buildbasestrategyinfo.ai
buildorderstrategyinfo.ai
infantrytactic.ai

Since we're more an advanced scripting group we've included 3-4 more .ai files including the ones above that would not normally link from the vanilla AI shipped with the game. Its a matter of evolving the AI scripts to something more.

Linking mods via Skirmish AI is a cinch now that I've done and seen it work. The project was complete over a month ago under v1.20 (will try v1.30 soon but we have our current Dawn of Skirmish v1.2 to deploy). I know about all the link points and why an AI will crash if its linked to another faction in the scripts if that faction doesn't exist. Its all actually quite damn exciting but take note:

There is absolutely no point to merge AIs from different faction mods since:

a) Mods are still untested, brutually unbalanced (Look at Tau's firewarriors that seem to own all!), and, worse-yet for a scripter, incomplete (mod teams still haven't included all their content and feature sets so when the AI tries to use something it didn't have before it can crash making debugging/troubleshooting a pain)!

b) Mods haven't been "future proofed" yet meaning they have to take into consideration other mods when integrating their work. This will happen eventually but a) must be complete first before b) can be done. MODS MUST BE FINISHED and SIGNED OFF on before merging begins.

Edited by thudo, 15 July 2005 - 01:56 PM.

[Danimator]

I know mods can be merged with a unified ai, I've done this myself with 4 different teams all working ok, what I meant is will the default Dawn of Skirmish about to be released do this with any specific teams?

or is this something to look forward to in the future?

[thudo]

Specific teams? You mean specific mods added in our scripts for future use? Nope since many of the mod teams out there don't have completed mods so we have to wait for everyone first. We're just shipping out scripts JUST for the 4 regular vanilla factions but yes with our scripts you can integrate custom user-created factions - you just need to know what yer doing + know how to troubleshoot illusive crashes.

So wait.. you've merged mods together and integrated AI? What kinda of mods? Ones that just add onto the existing factions or totally brand new ones? I've done, ahhem, both. Quite exciting to see it work but it was just an experiment to see if, in theory, it would work. And OOHH BOY did it ever!!

[Danimator]

I guess what I was wondering was if I downloaded the new Dawn of Skirmish, could I then play say Rhinoz or Cadian using the standard DoS but from your answer I can't.

I got the impression from reading the many posts over the last couple of months that this might have been possible but this must be one of the other projects you're working on.

I'm still on 1.2 (taking even longer than you to make the move ) so I merged some old mod ai's just for my own fun, Cadian, Daemonhunters (v.65 or .70), Rhinoz and one of my own. As you say great fun but I know what you mean about balance etc. even model sizes vary. Cadian look tiny alongside Daemonhunters and even smaller against my lot but there are loads of them so it still works somehow.

Hopefully you will find a way for the ai to read and update from all mod's ai at the same time one day?

To be honest I didn't really understand how the ai worked in connection with other folders and mods until I started this the night before last. I mean I understood the ai by itself and how to get it working in one mod and converted my own mod and got it working. It was how it worked with other mods and multiple data folders and module files and the general order of things, but I have got it now after 48 hours nearly non-stop.

Thanks Thudo. God, I love this stuff.

[thudo]

Key is: build the faction AI at the basic level.. Just integrate its basic buildorders and squads but NO UNIT ABILITIES first! Stay away until the faction is running with basic stuff. THEN.. start adding special abilities.

Hopefully you will find a way for the ai to read and update from all mod's ai at the same time one day?

Why would I need to do that when one grand AI repository can do that quicker and its easier to manage? I'm more worried about the mods merging together at a basic level then I am with the Skirmish AI being integrated. Skirmish AI is easy now that I've tested it. The logistics of merging mod folders and data - esshh.. thats for the teams to work together on that (if that'll be possible).

[Danimator]

I think the AI repository idea is doable now and I would be seriously interested in heading up this project.

I have the ability to do the basic merging of ai files, I have web space and web design skills to get a dedicated site put up and most importantly I have the time, something I am pretty certain no-one else on the ai team has at the moment.

Lets face it, this is more time consuming than anything else and if I got stuck I would have you guys to help me out.

I have been trying or wanting to break into the ai inner circle for a while and have come a long way. I still can't contribute with unique scripts as I have no coding background so if you said 'make me a script to build turrets around generators' I wouldn't have a hope compared with you guys but I am improving all the time.

However, when it comes to the standard ai I am sound and as I say I have a huge amount of commitment and time to offer if the position was right.

I was thinking of doing this myself anyway but I obviously lack the credibility the ai team has.

What do you think, interested at all?

I could also do some work on mod team's ai if you were struggling for time.

[thudo]

Wow.. really? You sound like my arch-ego! Drop me a PM and we'll chat more about this and converse via email.

Btw.. merging mods is hard... merging AI = a joke. I'm more concerned about mod teams ensuring their work is balanced with the 4 vanilla factions and future-proofed (integratable with other mods) then I am about Skirmish AI merging.

I'm even starting a quick wiki on some of the cool troubleshooting points to watch for when coding AI from the ground up. Real quick stuff.. nothing big as my AI Migration doc handles all the rest.

Btw.. it isn't time consuming. Most time consuming is writing the AI for the faction from the ground up (unitstats.ai = semi-Ugh!) then linking the abilities then playtesting with NO unit abilities THEN slowly linking the scripts to those unit abilities. Its actually fun and rewarding but, I do this in my spare time. I got this amazing team to work with + I need the experience with LUA coding.

[Danimator]

Aha, the plot thickens, a nods as good as a wink to a blind man. Lots to talk about by the sound of it.

[Obake]

Danimator, I'm nowhere hear where these guys are either, but I can tell you that I've merged DOS 1.1 and Rhinoz together and it works perfectly.

My reason for doing so was to be able to access the new Rhino variants that Compiler made, and still have the DOS AI. The best part is that I've got this working under 1.3.

[Danimator]

Hi Obake,

I get the impression that merging ai is harder under 1.3 than 1.2, is this true and if so why?

I'm still on 1.2 on my lan at home but installing 1.3 at work today so I guess I will find out soon but would still like your opinion.

As for DoS, I'm afraid I never use it. Not because I don't like it but because i'm a shiite player. I only got involved because of my son who's 9 years old so I have to play to his standards and he likes long slow games not frantic wars.

Even when I play test maps myself I tend to play the same way now, not really interested in winning or losing just to watch what happens and how things work.

In fact I can't remember the last time I played a full game by myself, it's all load, test, load test, load test all night

I'm looking forward to seeing 1.3 Rhinoz and the new models and when you say you have the ai working, have you got the new vehicles working? last time I looked they weren't even in the stats.

[Obake]

Hi Obake,

I get the impression that merging ai is harder under 1.3 than 1.2, is this true and if so why?

I'm still on 1.2 on my lan at home but installing 1.3 at work today so I guess I will find out soon but would still like your opinion.

As for DoS, I'm afraid I never use it. Not because I don't like it but because i'm a shiite player. I only got involved because of my son who's 9 years old so I have to play to his standards and he likes long slow games not frantic wars.

...

I'm looking forward to seeing 1.3 Rhinoz and the new models and when you say you have the ai working, have you got the new vehicles working?  last time I looked they weren't even in the stats.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Unfortunately Danimator, I can't tell you if merging AI is harder now than it was under 1.2 because I didn't start trying until after 1.3. In fact, I didn't even start playing with Dawn of Skirmish until after 1.3 was released. I have found that merging DOS and Rhinoz is more time consuming than it is difficult. As I've told Thudmeizer in a side conversation, essentially what I did was to create a new mod, copy over the Rhinoz files, create a new AI folder and copy over the DOS1.1 files and add the AI entries for the new vehicles into the appropriate DOS .ai files (unitstats.ai, basebuildstrategy.ai and so on).

If you have a basic understanding of the layout and requirements of the AI folder it's more a matter of copy and pasting than anything else. I've found that it works exceptionally well and the AI controlled factions tech up nicely. Of course I'm looking forward to the guys releasing v1.2 of Skirmish AI as the streamlining should make the process even easier. To be honest, I haven't seen the AI build the new Rhino's, but I think that's more due to their prioritization of importance based on the situation than on anything else. As for me, I'm always building at least a couple of Razorbacks. I tend to look at them as upgradeable Landspeeders.

It's important to note that Oozish is right in his criticism that Skirmish AI v1.1 won't build vehicles in 1x1 battles under 1.3. They'll build quite a few if you're playing with your son and increase the resource rate to high though, or if you play a quickstart game. I'm not sure what difficulty level you play on when you have your son with you, but I've found that in team games at least, the AI is a bit less agressive under Skirmish AI than they are with the default AI, but they hit a lot harder when they do attack because they actually research their upgrades.

Default AI tends to throw units at you piecemeal as soon as they build them. Skirmish AI uses them much more intelligently and makes for a much better game in my opinion. I expect that to continue with future releases from these guys!l

[thudo]

The problem is: if you rush an opponent right away then OF COURSE he won't build vehicles. Hell.. I couldn't! But wow.. those 1-3min games are so much fun. I might as well go back to playing Battlefield2.

The only remedial thing I could think of is giving the AI priority to capture mid-points and immediately fortifying them with inbound troops. Period. If you want your rush, then the AI must rush too. Its sad that RTSes like DoW just divulge into brutal conquering of LPs right outside the enemy's LP without a little more challenge. Attrition is sometimes a good thing. Not always - n00bs need to learn about getting owned but AIs should ALWAYS remain competitive every game.

Problem is: name me one RTS ever made like that? <hears crickets>

Enuff said.

[Danimator]

Obake, I merged the folders in much the same way and as you say it was pretty straight forward, its just a pity you hadn't done this before in 1.2 but I can't see why there would be any diffrence at all in this side of things as the ai folders aren't affected by converting to binary etc.

The only problem would be debugging if you did come across a problem, without the luas available this would be very tricky or rather very time consuming having to look in rgd files rather than luas.

If you have the latest version of Rhinoz then you should be able to make it build whatever you want by building a lot of that particular unit yourself as the ai looks at the enemy's favorite class type. I did this some while ago to get the ai to build vindicators and it worked well.

Razorbacks are my favourite too...awesome machines, probably my favourite in the whole of DoW... still, not seen Compilers new units yet

Thud, I got DoW onto my pc at work patched to 1.3 but then ran out of time, a bit busier at work than expected so I didn't get much further. Downloaded Daemonhunters .77 & .78 and that about it.

I also lost a lot of time with dodgy patches that kept failing and in the end had to trapse to the car, get my laptop and copy my old patches across, luckily these worked fine first time. Catch you later.