41 replies to this topic

[thudo]

I will.. So incredibly pleased by the feedback. This is, by far, are most solid product yet now that we have betatesters to ensure quality assurance. Makes a big difference having pre-release feedback!

[oozish]

ok, someone tell me what I'm doing wrong. This battlemarshes/CHAOS matchup on harder is freaking incredible! Every time (3x) now I've thought I must have them, they've pushed me back and crushed me. This replay is a good example of this. Someone tell me what's going on...well, I was lame on my control of resources, you have to play perfectly to beat this AI...great work, maybe too good for me. =/

http://www.flypictur...one&id=qtz2kao=

[oozish]

regarding server downtime, thud...you'll post the link in the adeptus modificatus official site too won't you?

[thudo]

Certainly will..

Oozish.. I can't see the replay being @ work but are you finding adding those two extra squads at game start really affected things? Thats the only change since RC5 as I recall apart from moving eldar_tier2_research up 2 spots closer to the beginning of the research tree. However, I can imagine that would make a difference as a turret can't be proactive and get out onto the map and push enemies back. This is the reason turrets in DoW are just a frill. The real defense is a pure offensive push! That seems to be the case as to why the AI is now more brutal at securing its assets using infantry right near game start.

[LarkinVB]

Wow, Thudo. This was a long way. From 20+ turrets to 10 turrets to 2 turrets to 0 turrets. I told you before, we could have saved lots of time ;-). Great job, team. Thanks.

[thudo]

Yeaaa.. The HUMAN turret that moves is mightier than the stationary one. Once I saw the new battlereports late last night into this morning I knew we finally struck the "early anti-rush" gold. Now new cunning strategies need to be devised to curtail it. Watching 4p_MountainTrail with all four factions 2vs2 on HARDER fight it out also clinched the deal. It was amazing how unpredictable it was (teams won half the time, and lost half). Flip-a-coin gameplay. Nice...

[oozish]

ya, it's alot tougher, imho...though I'm glad to report a win this a.m. on MoM as last night's battles on battlmarshes had me scared I was up a creek. I think Battlemarshes is especially hard map with the ai as is, as I'm sure is bloodriver.

I'll need to figure out a serious strat to defeat it, and I have a hunch it might have more of a rush than you've seen from me before (with ASM's). Since I can't creep out and conquer territory (well, I can but if you watch the above replay you'll find I either made too many mistakes or that just doesn't work anymore)...then I'm going to have to put the enemy to sleep fast.

It's truly challenging. Any other beta testers on this map I"d love to watch and see how you do it. Cheers.

Now...post the release!

Edited by oozish, 20 July 2005 - 06:03 PM.

[Excedrin]

I played one game on Harder and it wasn't challenging at all, so I went back to Insane and played 4 games as Ork. The Ork vs Eldar matchup is very bad (at least when it selects this particular unit mix?), Eldar made rangers.

The dancing code seems to hurt the AI because the dancing squads don't run away, they kinda run away, then turn around and run some other direction (they get hit whenever they change directions).

http://lerp.com/~sic...isc/RC6-ork.zip
http://lerp.com/~sic...0720.095254.rec
http://lerp.com/~sic...0720.100348.rec
http://lerp.com/~sic...0720.104348.rec
http://lerp.com/~sic...0720.105641.rec

I'll play as Chaos tonight.

[oozish]

post a SM vs. Chaos, skool me! I must really be playing sloppy or something. I only play SM too, so that would be great if you'd use that race for yourself.

Cheers!

Edited by oozish, 20 July 2005 - 06:05 PM.

[thudo]

I played one game on Harder and it wasn't challenging at all, so I went back to Insane and played 4 games as Ork. The Ork vs Eldar matchup is very bad (at least when it selects this particular unit mix?), Eldar made rangers.

Well its either Guardians or Rangers as I cannot get DRs or WS that early on (it would kill the Eldar's economy that soon + we've tried as coders to get the AI to force build'em to no avail. Rangers are better as they've got a little more respect since v1.30 + excellent range now.

[Excedrin]

If it absolutely can't get WS/DR (it should be able to... my WS massing AI works in 1.3, note I like the WS micro / jumping code that I've seen in the skirmish AI so far) , then guardians would be better.

If you watch the replays where I played as Eldar, I get the WS/DR aspect stone immediately after the FS and start pumping out WS/DR shortly after building 3 LPs.

Also, note that if it doesn't make rangers, that's a LOT of extra req to spend on WS/DR (80% of a squad, not including power, if it has 1 gen, that's enough to mass a ton of WS).

I guess my point is that it needs to balance getting troops with tech. Early game, it should go for lots of small squads, mid game it can reinforce them and tech. But, if it's entering the middle game stage and loses lots of troops, it should stop teching and revert to massing lots of small squads (running them away / avoiding combat).

Finally, it should be possible to implement a couple improvements to the micro code / infantry tactic, one: keeping squads together, two: detecting focus fire (based on "oh crap, squad 4 just took 800 damage, but squads 1, 2 and 3 are taking none") and running the focused squad away.

I'd like to work on some of this stuff for 1.3. 1.2 is pretty good, I especially like the lack of turrets.

[LarkinVB]

The dancing code seems to hurt the AI because the dancing squads don't run away, they kinda run away, then turn around and run some other direction (they get hit whenever they change directions).

Yes. There is something rotten with this code since v1.3. Worked better with 1.2. Shall I try to fix, shall we remove it or shall it stay for v1.2 mod as is ? Fix might take some time though.

[oozish]

I say get 1.2 out and then worry about it....

[thudo]

I say get 1.2 out and then worry about it....

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Yes.. 9/10 Ownnnnishs would likely approve! RC6 is fine as is. Its an amazing challenge + it works well under v1.30 which is itself the price of admission right there!

[LarkinVB]

Just wait a sec. Think I found the problem.

Edit : I think problem was like this :

squads with hold stance seem to get get low level (beyong lua AI) move instructions and therefore don't obey as expected. Now I set them on stand ground while dancing/broken and they seem to follow my command.

I did 2 tests and didn't see any back/forth movement after my fix.

I also fixed ork vehicle problem where they settle at 60 cap only building trukks.

Edited by LarkinVB, 20 July 2005 - 09:38 PM.

[oozish]

nice, upload RC 7 then?

[Markoso]

or 3B1 >.> Also, I'll give schooling you a shot on BattleMarshes Oozish (against harder CPU chaos right?).

Here's the replay of the RC6 game, me vs. harder Chaos on battleMarshes.

http://flypicture.co...one&id=qtz2l6o=

Edited by Markoso, 20 July 2005 - 11:27 PM.

[LarkinVB]

You can download my latest fixes for your pleasure here :

Larkins tweaked 1.2RC6


I also try to improve hard counter code. It stopped at tier2, now it stops only after 13 game minutes.

[Markoso]

Gave it a test with your version Larkin, felt a bit smoother (either that or the AI just naturally exploits any oversights XD). In any case, I decided to have it be the exact same matchup as my previous test, for comparison.

http://www.flypictur...one&id=qtz2l6s=

Also, one observation, I noticed the Chaos Sorc wasn't being abused by the AI properly. If it had chains+doombolted me in that initial fight (after his building), I may not have won that one, or at the very least it'd have decimated my squads. Not entirely sure if it's possible to script it (that's one of those "Do it in every single occasion" type things).

[oozish]

Hi Markoso and Excedrin,

I viewed your replays and they are excellent examples of crippling the enemy with an early scout rush (in most cases); I realized right away that this was indeed a way to beat the CHAOS, since you of course are crippling their ability to achieve resources. I thought I was aggressive but this is the ultimate rush, which I've never reallly been too fond of (I like teching').

given that, I upload 'oozish vs. CHAOS ASM-style'...still, can't let the chaos tech too far but at least I get some cool units! LOL Check out this victory vs. CHAOS on HARDER @ Battlemarshes. PS: It's so cool to watch others replays, u guys are smart!

http://www.flypictur...one&id=qt/1k6U=

I think it speaks alot for the AI progress that if you let the enemy AI get some resources underway it's so difficult indeed! A fearsome enemy...some say..

*(giggle)* wait...that's ghey....try this,

muh hoo hahahaha!!

"DEATH FROM ABOVE!"

Edited by oozish, 23 July 2005 - 11:33 PM.