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#1 Kazyumi

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Posted 19 July 2005 - 09:37 AM

Who agrees with the theory that says that the universe is infinite?

I do for once. And I got a lot of ideas/thoughts I want to share.
But first I need to know who think of the same lenght, otherwise it would sound ridicule..

Oh well:
If the universe is infinite, wouldn't that mean there are infinite changes that there other planets like ours? Perhaps even like how it is now, but with just a different aspect, like another dimension?
Meaning that there could be several versions of yourself. In an alternate universe.
Pretty scarey.. ey?

Edited by Hooligan, 19 July 2005 - 09:45 AM.

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#2 Slye_Fox

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Posted 19 July 2005 - 09:49 AM

For this i will quote Eistine
There are two things that are infante, Man's stupidity and the univerce, and i'm not too sure about the latter

#3 Ash

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Posted 19 July 2005 - 10:13 AM

No, I don't believe it is. It might seem infinite, but I'm a firm believer in the multiverse, with every possibility and opposite played out. An infinite number of universes, each one different.

As for that big bang...I believe it happens to kick start yet another universe off.

Another idea I agree with is that there is another 'me' doing the same thing i did a millisecond ago...and so on and so forth, and each one of those is a seperate universe also. So yes, we've got an absolutely numberless amount of universes going on from the beginning of time, all following one of an infinite number of timelines of every possibility being played out.

The scale of this is immense, but there's probably no way we'll ever know for sure. However, yes I fully believe there are lots more of me doing the same (but before/after me), or different things, and either coming off better or worse for it. Probably there are a number of universes where I don't exist, and a number where I did exist but now do not because I got hit by a car, or ate something bad, or got meningitis or something. Also, there'll be a number where I'm a girl or I have down's or something else...or maybe I've led a revolution and now rule the world or something :D

As for our universe being infinite...it certainly seems it to us given how impossible it is to travel the expanse of it. Equally, while I do believe aliens exist on other worlds, I believe the chances of them finding us are pretty slim, given it takes light four years to reach us from the nearest star to us besides the sun. I don't think it's feasible to travel at light-speed or even close to it...even if it was, it'd take millions of years to cross the galaxy to reach us. If any ET's are coming for us from their planet...I'd hope they've got a good book to read :D
But there is more besides our universe, I'm sure of it.

Edited by Comrade Jerkov, 19 July 2005 - 10:18 AM.


#4 Ugbluz

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Posted 19 July 2005 - 11:04 AM

In a day there are an finite amount of combinations of choice, e.g eating brekfast then sleeping in, or brekfast going out, what brekfast you have, how much of it, how long it takes you to pour the milk, if there was a universe for each of your choices and every atom in this universe there would be a finite amount, but too huge for anyone to comprehend! :D

Edited by Ugbluz, 19 July 2005 - 11:04 AM.

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#5 AdmiralGT

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Posted 19 July 2005 - 11:50 AM

I don't think the universe is infinite in size for a few reasons.

-The universe is seen to be expanding, if something is infinitely big, how can it expand into something bigger?
-We only see stars up to a certain "distance" away. If the universe is infinitely big, why is there a sudden stop in stellar material?
-The universe is thought to have started from the big bang. If this started from an infinitely small space, what did it expand into to become infinitely big?

I do agree that the universe is of an unimaginable scale, but it is not infintely large, it has a finite size. What is outside of the universe is another question.

#6 Tom

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Posted 19 July 2005 - 12:12 PM

You could say the universe goes on until it meets nothing. Many people then ask the question "what is nothing." Nothing is where time doesn't exist, no light. How do you explain that? I believe the explaination is "black."

Where light does not travel, you cannot see, if there is no light, there is darkness thus nothing is there. Space is a vaccum, so nothing is a vaccum with no light. Isn't that possible?

#7 Guest_ImmoMan_*

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Posted 19 July 2005 - 12:42 PM

I don't think the universe is infinite in size for a few reasons.

-The universe is seen to be expanding, if something is infinitely big, how can it expand into something bigger?
-We only see stars up to a certain "distance" away. If the universe is infinitely big, why is there a sudden stop in stellar material?
-The universe is thought to have started from the big bang. If this started from an infinitely small space, what did it expand into to become infinitely big?

I do agree that the universe is of an unimaginable scale, but it is not infintely large, it has a finite size. What is outside of the universe is another question.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


- It can still expand if you look at particle densities. If particles all move away from each other then there is expansion, even if it happens everywhere in an infinite universe.
- This is because the universe has a finite age. Light from very distant objects just didn't have the time to reach us yet.
- The big bang didn't expand the universe inside space. Rather, it created space itself, and as of now space is still expanding.

The current theory shows 3 different models of the universe. In each one, space and time starts at the big bang, and from there space expands, taking everything with it. A common analogy is a balloon with dots on it, being inflated. The universe (the balloon) expands, so all the dots move away from each other. As such, the universe is really expanding in 4 dimensions (beat that!), which explains why there is no common 'centre point' for the expansion, just like on the balloon. Everything moves away from everything else, no matter where you are.

The first model is that of a 'closed' universe. A closed universe is finite in size, but still unbounded. This would mean that you could keep going and never reach any kind of border. This is just like the balloon analogy. If you keep going, you eventually end up where you started. Space itself wraps around just like the surface of a balloon (or the Earth) does.

Second model is the 'flat' universe. Space is just as it says, flat. There's no wrapping around this time, so you can go on forever. This is what we're accustomed to, and this is probably very nearly what our universe is like. A flat universe is unbounded and infinite. Anything sent off into space, no matter where, will eventually slow down, but never stop completely. This applies to everything in the universe, so the universe itself will continue to expand forever. It will get closer and closer to its final size, but never actually reach it. Instead it will slow down more and more until it's going so slow you can't notice. But it'll never stop.

Third model is an open universe. It's similar to the flat model, but here there's no way to stop the expansion. Everything will continue to fly away from everything else, and in the end you just have a very big, cold, dark and empty universe. Anything sent into space with enough velocity will just keep going forever. It will not turn around or slow down to a near stop. Sure it will slow down a bit (after all, the whole universe will be pulling it back once it reaches the 'edge') but it will keep going.

#8 AdmiralGT

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Posted 19 July 2005 - 01:35 PM

I don't think the universe is infinite in size for a few reasons.

-The universe is seen to be expanding, if something is infinitely big, how can it expand into something bigger?
-We only see stars up to a certain "distance" away. If the universe is infinitely big, why is there a sudden stop in stellar material?
-The universe is thought to have started from the big bang. If this started from an infinitely small space, what did it expand into to become infinitely big?

I do agree that the universe is of an unimaginable scale, but it is not infintely large, it has a finite size. What is outside of the universe is another question.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


- It can still expand if you look at particle densities. If particles all move away from each other then there is expansion, even if it happens everywhere in an infinite universe.
- This is because the universe has a finite age. Light from very distant objects just didn't have the time to reach us yet.
- The big bang didn't expand the universe inside space. Rather, it created space itself, and as of now space is still expanding.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


-In order for something to move away from something else (or in the case of the universe, expand), it must be a finite distance away from it originally. If you are infinitely far away from something, you cannot move further away from it since being infintely far away from something means you are at the limit of how far away you are.

-If you start at the same point as something else, if it moves away from you at a slower rate than light takes to reach you, you will always see it. Say you were to stand next to a car on a road. That car drives off (under the speed of sound). In a perfect world of just you and the car, you would hear that car forever and see that car forever (presuming it left in a straight line). While light at this present time hasn't had time to reach us yet, the light from where it was millions/billions of years ago has, and we would see that star until it "dies". You can only say this area where stellar material is not found can only occur if the universe was created in multiple places and thus light hasn't had time to reach us or if the big bang releases particles at speeds greater than the speed of light.

-It is thought the universe was created from a "matter-antimatter war" and that in the end, matter one and we have the universe as we know it. Alternatively, matter was just created at this spot. If a "war" occured, where were they "fighting" since "space" didn't exist or if matter was created, where did it come from?

#9 Mormacil

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Posted 19 July 2005 - 05:50 PM

For this i will quote Eistine
There are two things that are infante, Man's stupidity and the univerce, and i'm not too sure about the latter

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I like the other one, dunno what movie, "For this I will quote Einstein
There are two things that are infenite, Man's stupidity and the univerce, and i'm not sure about the first one

#10 Sari

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Posted 19 July 2005 - 06:24 PM

-The universe is seen to be expanding, if something is infinitely big, how can it expand into something bigger?

What is outside of the universe is another question.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Yeh, that's what gives me brain freeze. What is the Universe expanding into? There has to be something else to allow it to get bigger, so what's at the edge of the Universe? And, for those who believe in after-realms and such ... where are they situated? I'm asking you lot all these questions because it's obviousely way beyond my feeble comprehension. :D

#11 AdmiralGT

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Posted 19 July 2005 - 07:23 PM

-The universe is seen to be expanding, if something is infinitely big, how can it expand into something bigger?

What is outside of the universe is another question.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Yeh, that's what gives me brain freeze. What is the Universe expanding into? There has to be something else to allow it to get bigger, so what's at the edge of the Universe? And, for those who believe in after-realms and such ... where are they situated? I'm asking you lot all these questions because it's obviousely way beyond my feeble comprehension. :D

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


Strangely, the universe might not be expanding into anything (at least according one theory). While we are expanding, technically, distances are just getting larger between things, in our frame of reference. If you go back to Immo's Balloon anaology, blowing the balloon up makes things further apart, but if you make it the same size and count seconds in the balloon as minutes, things take further to get to, and hence are further away. Physically we haven't changed size, but light still travels at the same velocity, but time is in essence "slower" so distances are larger. So we could be expanding, but not expanding at all.

#12 [MoD]Cha0s C0ntr0L

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Posted 20 July 2005 - 05:38 AM

Bah, I've always thought about life, universe and other random crap. It got me no where.

#13 Silent_Killa

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Posted 20 July 2005 - 05:38 AM

The question is, what exactly do you define as the universe. There is a whole lotta nothing out there. I've always looked at the universe as the expanse of nothing around us, which, really, should never end because nothing never starts, it just is, or isn't really. We, currently, are floating in this universe of nothing, and moving within it, and by moving through nothing, we create time... I'm just gonna go with god, he's simpler, and will one day be kind enough to smite us :dry:
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#14 anonymous

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Posted 20 July 2005 - 02:02 PM

Here is a theory.....

The beginning is the end and the end is the beginning.
The universe bends it is not flat.
Circle=Infinite
Invert the concept of how we view the universe.
Reverse engineer the concept.
Instead of thinking about a starting point think of an end point.
We are searching for the end when we try to fathom the beginning of the universe. Everytime a new concept shows itself it takes us further away from an answer. Leading me to believe that we are actually looking at the beginning instead of the end because there is no "end". The past and the future make up the now. How can you possibly catch up to the now and see it in its entirety without the past or the future converging? Thats the question that needs to be asked. When you can answer that you will have found "God". Every time you get close it seems further away than when you started because the past and the future are creating a new now. In order to understand the future one must understand the past. When we look at the universe we are looking at the past and the future creating the now. The future being the new beginning and the past being the old beginning creating the new now. Kind of looks like a circle using a circle as an analogy ofcourse. :dry:

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#15 Ash

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Posted 20 July 2005 - 02:33 PM

Uhm...a few things.

1: Who brought God into this? o_0
2: A few line-spaces to let us separate your points would be nice :dry:
3: Time is more or less an irrelevant concept with regards to the universe, except that if the universe is infinite, then time must also be infinite, because if it is finite, then it must have 'begun' and it must have 'ended'.

I think what he's getting at, though, is that the matter in the universe will pull itself together into a big crunch and start all over. It may have happened several times before in the past...and we wouldn't know.

#16 FK47

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Posted 20 July 2005 - 02:33 PM

I don't believe the human mind is yet expansive enough to understand the workings of the universe.

We'll understand when the time comes.

#17 AdmiralGT

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Posted 20 July 2005 - 02:40 PM

A circle is only infinite in one axis (theta in circular co-ordinate systems). It is of finite radius.

I don't think you can say time is finite if the universe is finite. Time could have existed before the Big Bang, there was just nothing there to fill it. Time existed before you were born, why can the same not be applied to the universe?

And lastly, it's thought the universe is of a critical mass, and therefore will not retract back in a "big crunch". Of course, we could be wrong but we won't be around then anyway. And if so, will time cease to exist if the universe crunches?

#18 Ash

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Posted 20 July 2005 - 05:08 PM

Actually, the universe probably isn't what crunches...though that depends on what your definition of universe is.

Is it only every speck of matter originating from the big bang? or is it the space into which said 'every speck of matter' is expanding into? Because it can't expand into nothing...there has to be an edge somewhere.

Infinite things, however, go on forever, and have no beginning or end, or edges. Like circumferencing a circle, as Anonymous said, rather cryptically. If the universe is infinite, it has gone on forever and ever and there has never been a period in time when it has not existed. Similarly, there cannot be, and has never been a period in the universe's history where time has not existed. But speaking from within the bubble of our universe, if the universe (i.e, everything that ever was and ever will be) is destroyed, time cannot exist within the universe anymore.

Sorry this is a bit convoluted but I'm getting to the point now :dry:

If the universe ever did, in any respect, have a 'beginning' then it must surely have an end. The only other option is that it has always been here. But if it has always been here, how did it come to be here? What made it? (If something made it, it still had a beginning, which makes it truly paradoxical, and somewhat nonsensical, to think that it has been here always)

Which is why I believe both are finite...although I believe that an infinite number of other universes exist out there beyond ours. Perhaps one of those universes branched off into ours (by either being a millisecond in front of our time or something, or by somebody making a choice), I don't know.

I hope what I said made sense. :cool:

#19 AdmiralGT

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Posted 20 July 2005 - 08:49 PM

Just because the universe has a "beginning" doesn't mean it has to have an end. You only say this because your understanding of everyday objects is that they have a beginning and an end, we cannot say if this applies to the universe (and we believe it doesn't).

#20 Tom

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Posted 23 July 2005 - 07:32 PM

The universes end would be your death? Its the end of your "own universe" anyway.




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