32 replies to this topic

[Quitch]

I'm assuming this is going to double as a general feedback thread? Sorry for the multiple posts, but with hours elapsing between them an edit means people who have scanned the forum since might miss the additional content.

I had two points, one of which has entirely eluded me, so I'll suffice to say that the first heretic should force labour into the red when building the barracks. You're turning off the ability too early (or are abilities hard-coded ala WC3?). The second heretic should be assisting if it comes out early enough.

Hmmm, more points are coming to me.

The AI is a little slow to react with FoF. Rangers are a good example. They FoF to the enemy, settle, fire, disable FoF and retreat... not quite right

If possible, you need to set the stronghold rally points to SPs. Currently the AIs early game suffers from the same problem as the vanilla AI. When a unit is built it stands there for five seconds before finally heading for an SP. Every second counts, especially if you're going to go for the forward points.

If the AI is going to take forward points then it should go there with its first squad and should send its builder as soon as they finish their barracks. It is essential to LP a forward SP ASAP.

Does the AI LP abuse? It should, its one of those things AIs should be better than humans at.

A problem with going for forward points occurs during team games when I've noticed that allies don't seem to communicate with one another which point they're heading for. Some Ork sluggas ran across two bases to reach a point only to find some allied cultists taking it, while one of their home points remained uncapped until an existing squad finished with the other home point. Unless this can be resolved it might be worth disabling this behaviour in team games, which isn't as useful there anyway.

I've heard the dancing code is off for the moment, so I guess the dancing I saw was just break retreat code... shame, I'm looking forward to seeing the dancing. Hopefully you've got the concept of LP2 dancing in there because that would be very sweet.

What else... oh yes, in team games it would be worth considering leaving the crticals for the Eldar player to cap where possible. Thus they can be turtled where necessary. Again, probably only worthwhile on maps like Biffy's with a single critical, and turrets shouldn't be appearing at the expense of squads. You'd want to be at the 10 cap minimum.

Hmmm, I'm sure I had more but I guess that covers it for now.

[oozish]

Quitch you make some good points, some I don't agree with tho. If you want to attach something the best way is to upload it to flypicture.com as a zip or .rar file/replay; up to 1 MB; then post the link here.

I like your point about unattaching if captureing a LP (for commanders)...I've seen that happen as well and that is really not a smart allocation of resources eh?

However, as the game moves into tier 2, I almost always build another servitor for healing...keep 1 in base and send to to support my vehciles if I can pull them away in time and save them. Even early game I've been experimenting with 3 servitors, 2 to build quickly and another to cap the Lp's.

I'd say early game, only 2 are needed (maybe, more testing to find out if I really want to do this..probably map dependent)....late game, 3 maybe 4 servitors are a no brainer for support and at least 1 (or 2) in base for continued building.

[Quitch]

Three maybe, but definately not four. Personally I would never exceed two servitors, but for heretics you would.

Which points do you agree with and which don't you? Only debate can reveal fact.

Edited by Quitch, 29 July 2005 - 01:53 PM.

[thudo]

We've scripted 3 Builders for all factions. The 4th one comes out if the AI wants it. Its not necessarily how many builders thats the question is:

1) How to keep them outta danger when moving around
2) Keep them from building when an area is under siege
3) When their idle, move to safest LP (most times they do).

Its their personality that is very critical.

[Flenser]

LP abuse: is that where you build an LP on a point just before the enemy uncaps it, but ensure your builder does not actually try and complete it? Lather, rinse, repeat? Is that an accepted tactic or is it a bit cheesy?

I like the idea of Eldar's turreting CPs. We discussed this a while ago, and I was going to code something for it.

And debate only leads to spurious appeals to authority and ad hominem attacks, never facts

Flenser

[Quitch]

Defiler spam is considered cheesy, but I'd make the AI do it... same for LP abuse, people can't even agree on what constitutes it, and the Relic AI does it (though it doesn't delete).

If I can click faster than my opponent I won't slow down because it's cheesy to be better, I'll just whoop them. Likewise the AI should use every card in its deck, and if it can stop you ever taking a point once it owns it, all the better.

Bear in mind that CP turtling is only going to work when there's only one CP on the map. It works best in negative terrain.

[Quitch]

The Chaos AI should go for oblits rather than horrors. Horrors were nerfed while oblits are the most cost effective unit in the game... bar maybe the defiler??

[thudo]

Well.. I do hope they re-buff the Orks and nerf the Defilers as 2 Defilers are simply unstoppable. Once the AI had 5-6 of em attacking us it was beyond GAME OVER. It was extinction x 50 ! Defilers need tempering - they are maddness! Obits are cool but do wish someone mods Chaos Terms and Dreads (both look soo cool could be made to offer more variety to gameplay that Relic didn't figure out). Eldar rely on speed and devious tactics (Dark Eldar even more) but to code that in AI is hard as hades. Flenser has started on his 2nd generation hit&run so real curious how that evolves! Eldar survive on hit fast and escape + turret farming on key areas but thats kinda ghey as DoW is about mass&attack offense or surgical strikes to piss the enemy off.

And Orks soo got the hose in v1.30. Sad as shiet. They need to be re-thinked and the Wartrakk re-instated a little more. They're a fragile gameplay faction that has some cool mechanics but their a micro'ing sink! You need to be good to micro them.

I fear a little that the Imperial Guard in WA will be all about turretling and the BaneBlade will sit back behind the lines and open up bad-ass on incomers. Then there are the Basilisks and its, well, death from, oh, almost the full length of a 1vs1 map... heheh.. ewww.. to think the new gameplay elements to deal with! FunFunFun!

Edited by thudo, 29 July 2005 - 04:50 PM.

[Quitch]

There are some interesting tactics for Orks emerging though, such as the shoota rush. When I run into 1.2 Orks I can see how many of them they're using.

[Quitch]

Played an Ork on VoK today. It used the multiple squads with NL tactic, which I was very impressed to see. It built Mad Doks, but I didn't see it get any use out of them. I met one who attacked me by himself (maybe after I killed the squad he was heading towards?), but I never saw fighting juice used.

More importantly the AI is losing its Commanders too easily. When the NLs appeared I already had plasma because it had put me under no pressure in my base, leaving me free to tech. The real danger came from its Wartrukks, but it had already lost its infantry by that point so I simply added missiles to a fresh squad.

The AI does lose its Commander too easily though, and it's allow me to dominate the battlefield until they rebuild, or I get lazy and throw mine away. With the BM the AI can afford to lose it, but only if its pushed the FC to less than 50% health. In fact the AI often seems to lose squads, letting them die alone rather than retreating them.

[Flenser]

Interesting - AFAIK the AI only retreats a particular squad if their morale is broken, and will not cycle a squad out if it suffers too much damage or is down to 1 or 2 members. Apart from Orks, where NL should stay in battle even if they have no squaddies left, should it do this?

I believe fighting juice has been enabled.

Flenser

[thudo]

Lots has changed in the new current build.. Larkin pulled a lot of trump cards and overtime to get it to where we are now.

[LarkinVB]

I will continue as I have LOTS of coding time at my hand.
Currently I'm working on better attach/detach code and try to keep commanders alive and kicking a bit longer. I will also try to fix the problem where units are killed without any resistance while attacking a building. I will improve dynamic research and have installed a squad table where wanted/unwanted units can get new priorities. Now the FS will show up more often after being killed. And more, of course ...