154 replies to this topic

[LarkinVB]

After 3 days of non stop work I just did send my latest build to thudo. I hope you will like it. Main work went into fixing the dance code (12 hours bug session included) and kicking eldars arse to get out the right aspect warriors asap.

Some fixes are untested (multiple grenade bug fix) but thats what beta testers are for, right ?

Have fun.

[thudo]

Holy gawd guy.. Thanks a mega ton! Hope you didn't break too many blood vessels over that ambitious changelog you slaved over? <goes to test Lark-changes>

[thudo]

Tested and code is up for all beta testers! One word = WOW! The Eldar are god-like now! Having that aggressive early build made them animals ! ! No crashes as well..

Oozish/Markoso.. Can guys check for effective troop dancing and see if the multiple squad grenade bug is fixed? Thanks!

Brilliant Larkin!

[LarkinVB]

Thanks. I'd leaked my code to Oozish as I know how eager he is looking for new builds and because he's a very good beta tester. Hope that's ok.

Multi grenade bug should be checked. Didn'tcheck if they are still throwing at all :-)

Dancing is improved as I try to stop it if there is a squad superiority in the vicinity. Hope there is no move jitter and most of all - it won'T crash the game.

[oozish]

playing vs. Eldar, I haven't noticed the dancing, they've been very effective with their ranged units, even when I tried to tie them up in cc, their backup units would mow me down. And there were ALOT of units, almost always 2 or more when I run into them.

IN my attacks as ASM build, the ASM's would break them, but then have to chase them all over creation, meanwhile, I'd have slow resource build up (since I did the tech build) and then they'd send more forces in....me low # of troops, them, lotsa ranged death = trouble.

The multiple grenade I haven't been able to test for because frankly I've been doing my damndest to try to beat the Eldar on bloodriver when I've had a chance to play.

Another issue that Quitch actually brought up gain recently--which has been in the back of my mind because I noticed it before too--is this: Is the AI building another commander unit if one is destroyed, e.g., if the FC is killed, will the marines build another one?

I think in playing the Eldar, I did kills their commander, then I saw her later...but I'm not 100%. I remmember this phenomena happening (NOT building the FC later) in earlier builds, but I haven't actually reviewed my replays. If not, obviously, this needs attention.

Edited by oozish, 30 July 2005 - 01:14 PM.

[LarkinVB]

Commanders are build afterwards, but no reliable. Seems to be demand system related. Will look into this.

[thudo]

Very cool.. No prob Larkin on the code release to Oozish.. The v1.3b1 is now up for the testers anyway.

The coolest thing I noticed is:

a) Eldar DRs nearly ruled the battlefield and FAST! Larkin strikes again! They came out soo fast it was hideously bad for the opposition, ME! And I still don't see why Seer Council sux.. they reinforce in massive amounts, are frick'n fast in, excellent CC, and tie up squads while DRs/WSes just mow MoW MOW down!

b) Larkin - love the new dynamic research order - so what happens is if the AI demands a certain unit (ie. Horror) then the AI will queue up the research items related to it based on the list you create?

I'll have more to say as I further playtest - I'm so loving it.

[Quitch]

They suck because they're not cost-effective for what you get, not anymore. The req spent on them is better spent on aspects. A large portion of this is because the Seer Council is CC, which makes them even less effective than they look on paper because CC units rarely actually get to fight anything in CC, they just make the target dance.

I haven't seen the SC used in a single high level replay since 1.3 was released.

Edited by Quitch, 30 July 2005 - 05:14 PM.

[LarkinVB]

b) Larkin - love the new dynamic research order - so what happens is if the AI demands a certain unit (ie. Horror) then the AI will queue up the research items related to it based on the list you create?

Yes and no. The research item will be queued at top if the AI fields at least two squads of that type. Since I don't know of specific horror researches they are not on the list. But possessed for example will research their stuff only on demand. Of course the code can be tweaked to add reseach triggered on other events.

Code is in buildbasestrategy.ai.

[Markoso]

Just got in, I'll give it a round of testing. Will edit this post when done.

Well, everything looks good, I concentrated on facing off the Eldar AI, since they need dance\retreat the most, and I gotta say it's a good jump from 1.2RCFinal. The AI didn't seem to be impaired by the "broken" retreat code that 1.3 introduced. However, I didn't see the AI throw any grenades in even one of the 3 games I played, so that bit may still be broken . Proper hard counters were built\utilized, solid use of FoF, can't say there's a whole lot for me to complain about on the Eldar side. I saved the latest replay, it's sorta crummy on my playside, but it hit most of the bases (and someone remind me of how to turn logging on\point to old topic that had it):

http://flypicture.co...one&id=qt71k6o=


Sidenote - SC is a disruption unit, and yeh, they haven't really been used in 1.3, though that doesn't make them any less of a good unit, it's just that most high level play in 1.3 doesn't revolve around Disruption anymore. None the less, they're a good bullet soak, and as far as disruption goes, they're the best Eldar has bar the Farseer and Prism Cannon

Edited by Markoso, 31 July 2005 - 12:55 AM.

[thudo]

I haven't seen the SC used in a single high level replay since 1.3 was released.

Well.. that sucks c*ck! Seer Council should be amazing as you only get one but its highly reinforceable. Didn't Relic double the size of Council as when the AI reinforces it to the max its huge!

Larkin - can you have the code allow for just one squad to be created before it adds it to the reseach queue? Just curious. I love the code though. Totally take the burden off waiting for it in the static queue and puts it if the AI actually plans to use the unit based on the demand system.

Thanks Markoso.. Give v1.3b1 a whirl.. Holy gawd its awesome ! ! !

[Quitch]

The Seer Council are simply not worth it any more. It all comes down to what you're getting for the investment, and they don't really cut it cost wise anymore.

I'm not an Eldar expert (I do SM after all) but when not one top level Eldar player (and there sure are a hell of a lot of them these days) uses them, that tells you something. DoW is a game of many useless units. It keeps the builds simple though, if predictable

Relic have a bad habit of making three changes where only one is needed. So, we get the over-buffed Defiler, the over nerfed SC, etc.

Edited by Quitch, 31 July 2005 - 01:52 AM.

[Markoso]

Yeh, I kinda rushed my overview, I noticed the FS thing, as well as the DRs allowing my troops to engage them in CC.

Also, on another note, Quitch, SC used to be used in high level matches all the time in 1.2. Unfortunately, CC as a whole was effectively nerfed in 1.3, when the ability to engage multiple squads in CC with a single squad was removed, thus making the SC more fluffy then necessary, but still not useless (no more useless then banshees on a whole, at the least).

[Quitch]

But Banshees are cheaper (and not used either) and with the discovery of their speed at taking down LPs you may see them used again (but don't bet on it )... another problem with the SC is it's an expensive yet easy to break unit. Yes, tagging made CC rather more popular (though I thought it was an awful "feature" and am happy its gone).

With appropriate costing I don't found the SC will return, it makes for an excellent Farseer escort, their disruption is second to none.

[Markoso]

Gotta say, I agree totally Quitch

While I'm at it, here's a flaw\feature in the AI that I find fairly dubious. When a builder is killed, if the building it was working on is unfinished, it is oft destroyed. In the case of say, if the player is running a harass, this can screw the AI over fairly badly, but I'm unsure of how feasible it is to have a builder check for unfinished buildings. As far as my limited knowledge of AI coding goes, it'd be easiest to have a script called that checks for unfinished structures when the builder is built I think, then going about it's proper routine after the script is done being called.

Edited by Markoso, 31 July 2005 - 01:03 PM.

[thudo]

Damn all hell! Relic should be ashamed for generally nerfing CC! I mean.. come on: is DoW all about shooty now? Going CC is a major staple of what makes War40k cool. Anything in modern-day military life can be elminated from a distance now (why are snipers so popular, eh? heheeh) but get in at melee and thats pure medievalism!

If a unit can get in at CC range then they should do major damage as their are enough guns in DoW now that make CC difficult to engage in in the first place. I do hope CC is re-instated as it should be more powerful. Everything right now in DoW is about killing from afar. Blah I say! There should be a diverse # of ways to kill - makes gameplay interesting.

[Quitch]

CC has never been a major power in DoW, tagging was simply an additional disruption, but one that harked to the APMness of WC3.

If you want proper CC then the damage needs to be unhooked from the animations, dealt at the beginning of a swing not at the end. I've suggested this on the Relic forums and people start talking about how it won't look right... it's a lost cause.

[LarkinVB]

My latest build is on its way to Thudo.

Seems grenades were fixed wwith my last build.

Changelog :

1. Improved dancing. Troops will dance also if enemy is ranged but at assault stance.
2. Improved attach/detach code. Hurt commanders wil be more safe too.
3. Warp spiders will jump attack weak ranged squads.
4. More flexible researches.
5. Cleaned up research order and hopefully reenabled entangle.
6. More demand modifiers for wanted/unwanted squads. Farseer will be rebuild more
reliable.
7. No buildings will be build in area under threat.
8. Tweaked attack triggers. Orks will only attack with at least 3 squads.
9. Limited reinforcements while capturing.
10. Cleaned up larger generator build code.
11. Builders limited to 4 max.
12. Fixed mapsize check bug (check was against small, not "small")
14. 2nd, not first squad will do midcapture.
15. Fixed FoF bug with attached farseer.
16. Embolden will only be cast if squad is broken.
15. Squads at CC try to attack squads, not buildings if under fire (experimental).
16. Squad upgrades are now checked before reinforcements.

[thudo]

Most ambitious! The Threat assessement for Engineer is important as too many times an engineer will just build when an area is assaulted. Now I wonder how easy it is to create a backup base elsewhere when the initial one is overthrown? Thats semi-easy to test: just money-cheat, build up fast, assault, ensure AI has the coin still, then watch and see if he mimics his old base somewhere else.