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#41 MSpencer

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Posted 14 August 2005 - 03:51 PM

Yes, and the factions that the US supported/brought to power were ever so nice. You kept the Vietnam war going, thereby killing of 14% of the nation's population, supplied the Taliban and Saddam Hussein with all the weapons and training they needed... Yes, very nice. Much better then the commies.

Who, in addition to Stalinist genocide, invaded Czechoslovakia, Afghanistan, and financed other states which invaded their democratic neighbors.
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#42 Blodo

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Posted 15 August 2005 - 05:22 PM

The difference is youre trying to get half the world to think youre doing it in good cause, when the truth is you werent, and i suppose everyone would just like you Americans to piss off instead of poking your goddamn noses into everyone elses matters.

Europe didnt need you for the cold war, infact most of your presidents were on their good way to hot it up not including Kennedy, who everyone was trying to dispose of because he actually tried to get on good terms with the Soviet Union.

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#43 Silent_Killa

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Posted 16 August 2005 - 12:26 AM

Please, just like Europe didn't need us during WW II right? You have to completely disregard the facts to think like you do. Europe didn't stand a chance against the Soviet Union.
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#44 Hostile

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Posted 16 August 2005 - 01:00 AM

The difference is youre trying to get half the world to think youre doing it in good cause, when the truth is you werent, and i suppose everyone would just like you Americans to piss off instead of poking your goddamn noses into everyone elses matters.

Europe didnt need you for the cold war, infact most of your presidents were on their good way to hot it up not including Kennedy, who everyone was trying to dispose of because he actually tried to get on good terms with the Soviet Union.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>



Don't think in absolutes, don't say "YOU" and mean all of us. We are not the present, past Presidents of the US.

In reality it's a contest of who has, who wants to continue to have, how we can help, and at what point is our "help" hurting.

In WWI and II we did just that, DIDN'T poke our noses in, and well, great death occured including dragging America into multiple world words no matter how much we took Blodo's advice and "kept our noses outta it"

It's pretty obvious being isolationist and keeping out of if does not remove ones country from the equation. (not withstanding the Swiss somehow)

I'm not gonna kid you, if europe didn't need us to create a deterant to Soviet invasion, than why did they allow us the place nukes and troops in thier countries?

To make sure there were American casualties and defensive nuclear deterrant to make the Soviets understand than WW III would take place if they invaded Europe.

Same reason there is 38K US troops in S Korea, that can't stop a N Korean army of 1 million, but if you kill any of us, we will swarm in great numbers with scarey weapons and precision weapons to annilate you.

Seems like a fairly straight forward deterrant to me, must be working N Korea has yet to move on S Korea.

Do you understand the magnitude of deterance it took for the US and Europe to portray in order to keep the Soviet Union from rolling right over a recovering European landscape?

No matter what political landscape we all come from, we have to admit the Soviets were not gonna stop after WW II in thier exspanion of satellite nations.

They publically stated such....

Well, maybe the US saved Europes ass a few times, but they saved ours also. They also created a civil war here, but whos counting poker chips credited over 150 years ago.

IMO, our smartest path would be to include the Russians with Europe, and the US into a lasting bond of economic interdependency. Than include some Asian countries as patience allows.

Lead by Japan, S Korea, India, and China. The more we intertwine and depend on each other the less we will fight. This is already happening....

Those left outside have no option but to pursue nukes to "balance" the powers that be.

#45 ComradeJ

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Posted 16 August 2005 - 08:53 AM

If something worked 50 or 60 years ago, that doesn't mean it works now. Today is not the time of totalitarian empires, it's that of religious fanatics and such. The Germans surrendered en masse after Berlin was captured, but apparently, the Iraqis don't seem to be. It's a totally different culture, one where poking your nose in doesn't seem to work.

But that's the thing that's not understood. Arabic culture is different from the Western (American/European) one. Of couse you had succes in WW II, because Europe's culture is largely the same as the US'.
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#46 Blodo

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Posted 16 August 2005 - 10:54 AM

America a detterent? More like attack on all fronts. You may want to review history, it was the Soviet Union that was in the defensive for the majority of the cold war.

Vietnam, Cuba. No - of course they attacked you first right? It was a blatant attack on communist supporters, Afghanistan was not a democracy supporter. It only proved your interests to discredit the Soviet Union, meanwhile you didnt care shit about the afghani people. If you did you wouldnt level the entire country to the ground with bombs.
Im making a point here that all these excuses about "freedom" is just bullshit. Lets look at the free Iraqi nation, so free they must love you and they probably show it to every one of those 130,000 soldiers going on around the streets pointing guns at everyone they deem suspicious. But, hey - every terrorist is an arab right?

Coming back to WW2, we asked you for help there, but it was like "Europe can fight for themselves" until it was a bit too late, but still you have our gratitude on that. Now coming over to modern times none of us actually asked you for help, yet for example Kosovo was bombed. Iraqis didnt ask you for help, you came in because you decided so. Same with Afghanistan.

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#47 Hostile

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Posted 16 August 2005 - 09:39 PM

America a detterent? More like attack on all fronts. You may want to review history, it was the Soviet Union that was in the defensive for the majority of the cold war.


I'm pretty up on history, and I don't remember USSR being so on the defensive. I do remember invasion of Afgan, missiles being placed in Cuba, the arming of north korea, Cuba and north vietnam, invasion of the chechs, and the start of communist revolutions in S America.

Besides be glad the west won the cold war, or would rather we all be speaking russian right now. So what is your point?

Vietnam, Cuba. No - of course they attacked you first right? It was a blatant attack on communist supporters, Afghanistan was not a democracy supporter. It only proved your interests to discredit the Soviet Union, meanwhile you didnt care shit about the afghani people. If you did you wouldnt level the entire country to the ground with bombs.


If you are up on history, vietnam was one country, befriended by the US, then communist revolutionaries began a civil war. So how did we attack them again? We were defending them.

We didn't level afghanistan, we are rebuilding it. Where do you get the balls to make up stuff like we leveled the whole country with bombs? You just make stuff up. Even the europeans agreed to that one.

Im making a point here that all these excuses about "freedom" is just bullshit. Lets look at the free Iraqi nation, so free they must love you and they probably show it to every one of those 130,000 soldiers going on around the streets pointing guns at everyone they deem suspicious. But, hey - every terrorist is an arab right?


Have you taken notice to the fact that there is a large insurgency going on over there. There are 130k US troops and 25 million people there. Believe if they didn't want us there, we'd be gone. Wether we liked it or not.

Coming back to WW2, we asked you for help there, but it was like "Europe can fight for themselves" until it was a bit too late, but still you have our gratitude on that. Now coming over to modern times none of us actually asked you for help, yet for example Kosovo was bombed. Iraqis didnt ask you for help, you came in because you decided so. Same with Afghanistan.


There were MANY iraqi groups begging to topple saddam around the world. Ever hear of the Iraqi Assemby? And many iraqis abroad have returned to help rebuild thier country. Yet you fail to mention that.

In conclussion, I understand your deep hatred of the US. Your posts are filled with the evidence. You label every citizen of the US a criminal responsible for everything from cancer to toe cheese.

If this isn't true than why do you continuelly say, "you this", "you that" , "you, you, you..." no not me. Them, them, them. The US government.

You're freakin lies are getting old... next you'll be saying we brutally leveled France because we liberated them. Oh wait, that must be differant? But why it?

France was overrun by the Germans, Vietnam was overrun by communists, Iraq was overrun by brutal criminals. The people were being held hostage for Christs sake! Seems you failed to mention that also. :blink:

#48 Blodo

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Posted 17 August 2005 - 12:30 AM

I'm pretty up on history, and I don't remember USSR being so on the defensive. I do remember invasion of Afgan, missiles being placed in Cuba, the arming of north korea, Cuba and north vietnam, invasion of the chechs, and the start of communist revolutions in S America.

America had missiles in Turkey, helped revolutions in Africa. The mojority of the vietnamese wanted to overthrow their government, you never ever mentioned that did you.

Besides be glad the west won the cold war, or would rather we all be speaking russian right now. So what is your point?

Amazingly enough id rather be speaking Russian, than have my country virtually dissolved by capitalists and corporations. I wont even go and say how much more debts the current government had done, and how much shit has been privatised leaving the country owning almost nothing, because you'll probably brand that as lies too.

If you are up on history, vietnam was one country, befriended by the US, then communist revolutionaries began a civil war. So how did we attack them again? We were defending them.

Oh i bask in the light of your glorious napalm strikes and explosives. Feel free to brand the fact that Vietnam was bombed by more explosives than the entire WW2 used as a lie too. Guess Hitler was helping europe too by taking over and mass-murdering 6 million jews and more.

We didn't level afghanistan, we are rebuilding it. Where do you get the balls to make up stuff like we leveled the whole country with bombs? You just make stuff up. Even the europeans agreed to that one.

http://news.bbc.co.u...sia/1740538.stm
Such an interesting lecture, and yet im the one spreading lies?

Have you taken notice to the fact that there is a large insurgency going on over there. There are 130k US troops and 25 million people there. Believe if they didn't want us there, we'd be gone. Wether we liked it or not.

Then why are there casualties still going on in Iraq? They probably dont want you. Why dont you give your newly established Iraqi government a chance then instead of turning it into a friggin police state? Brand these words as lies as well: power base.

There were MANY iraqi groups begging to topple saddam around the world. Ever hear of the Iraqi Assemby? And many iraqis abroad have returned to help rebuild thier country. Yet you fail to mention that.

I would not be arguing about Iraq if it wasnt for the fact that you made Saddam into power.

In conclussion, I understand your deep hatred of the US. Your posts are filled with the evidence. You label every citizen of the US a criminal responsible for everything from cancer to toe cheese.

Lets see if i remember correctly, "Youre either with us or the terrorists"? You see i dont brand neither you or any American as a criminal (ok there are some exceptions, but heh my nation has people that deserve to be shot too and im not afraid to say it). I have respect for your past administrations. Roosevelt, Kennedy; they were great people. You wanna know what i hate? I hate your current politics, i hate the lies your current government is spreading and i hate the hypocrisy and card-dealing that surrounds you. I hate the fact that you want to believe the entire world is yours, and that you do anything to open up new markets for your corporate capitalism.

Capitalism was something back in the 40-50s, now its twisted beyond recognition and its time to move on, but thanks to people like you it probably wont happen without at least another bloody world war.

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#49 Hostile

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Posted 17 August 2005 - 01:24 AM

Move onto what, I never hear a solution from you BLODO, all I hear are complaints. People like me, whatever. What is your solution for the next evolutionary step to the next level if it's not capitalism?

Mine is teach the masses how to beat the closed society of capitalist, so we all can benefit. And yours is?

I see you for what you are as you see me. I will positively remove people like you who choose to control the masses instead of allow them to grow and benefit.

Corps do not control the US without the permission of the US. But you want to remove corps so that the government has no opposition to it's dicatotial state to control people.

Where I choose to allow corps thrive under regulations to allow the people another voice to ikeep the check and balance system.

Without large corps, there is only the government. We all know what they're intentions are. :D

Corps allow little poeple like me protection from the government against seizure. Public domain can be ceased from private citizens but cannot be siezed from corps without a judge.

That is how people protect thier emminant domain. Meaning saving property from seizure.

Don't hate the player, hate the game. Learn the rules and protect yourself from the dark side of captilaism. This is what I mean by teaching people in school how the system works. :blink:

#50 Comrade Kal

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Posted 17 August 2005 - 01:26 AM

A revolution of idleness.

If the average wage-earner worked 4 hours a day, there'd be enough for everyone and no unemployment. Money lost would be put back by spending on leisure, which is the main bonus: people would have far more time for it.
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#51 Hostile

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Posted 17 August 2005 - 01:31 AM

edited my above post. Read again.

#52 Comrade Kal

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Posted 17 August 2005 - 01:36 AM

If everyone could 'beat the system' then it would fall apart.
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#53 Hostile

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Posted 17 August 2005 - 01:42 AM

Not true, by any means. Not true at all. Look at China, it slowly is allowing capitalism. Why cause it does work, under close scrutinity of the government.

Do you know that certain investestments are only allowed for the rich. Simple minds would say "how rude!" No it's to protect young/low level investesters from being duped into scams.

See when capitlism is in motion for awhile, people find ways to exploit it, than rules change to accommodate that. Let us nurture capitalism alittle bit. You'll see it works.

#54 Mastermind

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Posted 17 August 2005 - 04:20 AM

If you are up on history, vietnam was one country, befriended by the US, then communist revolutionaries began a civil war. So how did we attack them again? We were defending them.

Oh i bask in the light of your glorious napalm strikes and explosives. Feel free to brand the fact that Vietnam was bombed by more explosives than the entire WW2 used as a lie too. Guess Hitler was helping europe too by taking over and mass-murdering 6 million jews and more.

The weapons of war became more powerful as time went on. Vietnam also lasted much longer than US involvement in WW2. But I guess little facts like that don't matter now do they?

We didn't level afghanistan, we are rebuilding it. Where do you get the balls to make up stuff like we leveled the whole country with bombs? You just make stuff up. Even the europeans agreed to that one.

http://news.bbc.co.u...sia/1740538.stm
Such an interesting lecture, and yet im the one spreading lies?

War is a nasty thing. People die when you are dropping bombs to topple a government. Or, the shorter version, Shit happens.

Have you taken notice to the fact that there is a large insurgency going on over there. There are 130k US troops and 25 million people there. Believe if they didn't want us there, we'd be gone. Wether we liked it or not.

Then why are there casualties still going on in Iraq? They probably dont want you. Why dont you give your newly established Iraqi government a chance then instead of turning it into a friggin police state? Brand these words as lies as well: power base.

SOME of those people don't want us there. They want total control for themselves. But I guess the needs of a FEW people are more important to you than freedom for the masses.

There were MANY iraqi groups begging to topple saddam around the world. Ever hear of the Iraqi Assemby? And many iraqis abroad have returned to help rebuild thier country. Yet you fail to mention that.

I would not be arguing about Iraq if it wasnt for the fact that you made Saddam into power.

Saddam was part of a coup that eventually led to his becoming president. The US supported him after he came to power, as he was the better choice between him and Iran, who had just overrun the US embassy and held US citizens hostage for over a year.
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#55 Blodo

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Posted 17 August 2005 - 09:38 AM

Move onto what, I never hear a solution from you BLODO, all I hear are complaints. People like me, whatever. What is your solution for the next evolutionary step to the next level if it's not capitalism?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I pointed out a solution several times in several topics before but youre too busy arguing to notice. Besides you screwed the entire vision of a government upside down. The corporations have far too much power and they control far too much. What we see now is corporate capitalism, at some point it will evolve to something the government cannot even touch, after that well be seeing the scenario of more and more sweat shops in 3rd world countries, which will in turn make more and more unemployment and we can just wait for a wall street crash after that. Its obvious.

So instead of pure capitalism which leads to self-destruction, you do both capitalism and socialism. The big idea is for the corporations to control the leisure and entertainment sector as well as food selling (restaurants etc), producing clothes. Meanwhile the government controls all industries, food production, everything thats the infrastructure of a country. The government then sells it to the corporations and earns money. And we dont get everything being shit cause the government will have a monopoly on the industry, therefore dictating prices to the corporations.

Its branded for success, its much better than standard socialism or capitalism because its COMPROMISE, something you conservatives probably never heard of.

War is a nasty thing. People die when you are dropping bombs to topple a government. Or, the shorter version, Shit happens.

Well Hostile was trying to feed me shit that you didnt bomb Afghanistan, so i just provided proof that you did :blink:

The weapons of war became more powerful as time went on. Vietnam also lasted much longer than US involvement in WW2. But I guess little facts like that don't matter now do they?

You know what matters? You were supposed to HELP the Vietnamese NOT ruin the majority of their country.

Saddam was part of a coup that eventually led to his becoming president. The US supported him after he came to power, as he was the better choice between him and Iran, who had just overrun the US embassy and held US citizens hostage for over a year.

Well what was the problem with coming in back then and establishing a democracy before Saddam got into power? Dont say to me that your government didnt see it coming, Saddam had aspirations for dictator long before he even got government.

Its the same thing again, support a dictator so they can kill themselves off. I know, it has been done by others before but the difference is youre lying us its all in good cause, when it isnt. Its for the American cause.

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#56 ComradeJ

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Posted 17 August 2005 - 10:03 AM

America a detterent? More like attack on all fronts. You may want to review history, it was the Soviet Union that was in the defensive for the majority of the cold war.


I'm pretty up on history, and I don't remember USSR being so on the defensive. I do remember invasion of Afgan, missiles being placed in Cuba, the arming of north korea, Cuba and north vietnam, invasion of the chechs, and the start of communist revolutions in S America.


And the US armed South Korea and South Vietnam.

Besides be glad the west won the cold war, or would rather we all be speaking russian right now. So what is your point?


Russian seems to be a nice language. I despise the American accent, it's a rape of the English language. But that's not to the point, I'm glad we live in a capitalist country. You could however, get your noses out of it. It's not as if France is still bossing you around for saving the US' asses during the Revolutionary war...

Vietnam, Cuba. No - of course they attacked you first right? It was a blatant attack on communist supporters, Afghanistan was not a democracy supporter. It only proved your interests to discredit the Soviet Union, meanwhile you didnt care shit about the afghani people. If you did you wouldnt level the entire country to the ground with bombs.


If you are up on history, vietnam was one country, befriended by the US, then communist revolutionaries began a civil war. So how did we attack them again? We were defending them.


Vietnam had both communists and capitalists. To determine what kind of country Vietnam should become, the country was split up into a communist north and a capitalist south. After a while, there'd be elections, that would determine the future of Vietnam as a whole. Largest part of the people voted for communism. Din Diem, the Southern dictator, didn't like that, so he refused. The US, who had put him into power, supported him.

Here's the point where you say "the elections were rigged". Yeah. But it's like China bombing the US to pieces with napalm and killing 14% percent of it's population because "Zomg the elections were rigged and John Kerry should've been president!!1"

We didn't level afghanistan, we are rebuilding it. Where do you get the balls to make up stuff like we leveled the whole country with bombs? You just make stuff up. Even the europeans agreed to that one.


But you supported Bin Laden in the first place. It's people's lives you're talking about, you can't just throw them away when someone doesn't do what you want him to anymore.

Im making a point here that all these excuses about "freedom" is just bullshit. Lets look at the free Iraqi nation, so free they must love you and they probably show it to every one of those 130,000 soldiers going on around the streets pointing guns at everyone they deem suspicious. But, hey - every terrorist is an arab right?


Have you taken notice to the fact that there is a large insurgency going on over there. There are 130k US troops and 25 million people there. Believe if they didn't want us there, we'd be gone. Wether we liked it or not.


More people are rebelling against the US than against Saddam. Every Iraqi has an AK-47, so every Iraqi can rebel... Hmmm...

In conclussion, I understand your deep hatred of the US. Your posts are filled with the evidence. You label every citizen of the US a criminal responsible for everything from cancer to toe cheese.


No, I have a deep hatred of the US' political system, and the fact that nobody seem to notice it's a piece of crap. Choosing an elite isn't a democracy.

If this isn't true than why do you continuelly say, "you this", "you that" , "you, you, you..." no not me. Them, them, them. The US government.


Some people here can choose their govenment themselves. It's a European thing, we call it democracy.

The weapons of war became more powerful as time went on. Vietnam also lasted much longer than US involvement in WW2. But I guess little facts like that don't matter now do they?


And the fact that the one was a world war, and the other a minor conflict doesn't matter? What was the max amount of troops stationed in Vietnam? 50.000?

War is a nasty thing. People die when you are dropping bombs to topple a government. Or, the shorter version, Shit happens.


Indeed. But the US created reason behind the shit in the first place.
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#57 Comrade Kal

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Posted 17 August 2005 - 11:21 AM

So when you drop thousands of bombs on a country, civilians die?


I can't help thinking there's an easy solution in there somewhere...
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#58 Ash

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Posted 17 August 2005 - 02:42 PM

Yeah. Nuke it. Kill a few thousands more and put the fear of God into everybody else :blink:

Anyway. I still fail to see why the US feels it has the right to impose its idea of freedom on everyone else.

If someone imposes their own vision of freedom onto another culture...is it really freedom? Ever heard of ethnocentric bias before? The idea that your culture is always right?

#59 Hostile

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Posted 17 August 2005 - 10:05 PM

We will have to agree to dissagree. A Catholic can't convert a Jew, a Jew can't convert a Muslim.

The only point I will make is that governments are not very good at running businesses. Ours runs a few and most run at a loss. It would make sense to further restrict them than have the governemnt control industry out right.

It's cause the way our government appropriates money. If you don't use the money, you lose it. It cause purposeful waste. It does not benefit to run below budget or you get less next year.

#60 Blodo

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Posted 17 August 2005 - 11:23 PM

We will have to agree to dissagree. A Catholic can't convert a Jew, a Jew can't convert a Muslim.

The only point I will make is that governments are not very good at running businesses. Ours runs a few and most run at a loss. It would make sense to further restrict them than have the governemnt control industry out right.

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Businesses no, industry yes. The government should decide about trade relations with other governments, how much we produce of this and how much we produce of that. Set up a price for e.g. food and make it be produced at a decent level. Currently the corporations are always looking for holes in laws to produce things cheaper than the rest, but worse so capitalism basically makes a flood of shit onto the market, and youre stuck with it cause everyone has to be the cheapest no matter what. This is where this system fails, and when the government should be put in control. Government wont compete, cause it has a monopoly therefore no more problems. And let the corporations work on leisure and refinement of stuff. Its another step, we would actually get shit from fine products then and i think thats a very good start.

Of course capitalists will turn it down since its less profit for them, but my theory is bound to be in effect sooner or later.

Edited by Blodo, 17 August 2005 - 11:24 PM.

ARGUMENT FROM CREATION, a.k.a. ARGUMENT FROM PERSONAL INCREDULITY (I)
(1) If evolution is false, then creationism is true, and therefore God exists.
(2) Evolution can't be true, since I lack the mental capacity to understand it; moreover, to accept its truth would cause me to be uncomfortable.
(3) Therefore, God exists.





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