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#1 Quitch

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Posted 13 August 2005 - 09:13 PM

Got build 7. Had a game on Fallen City where the fact I've been spending too much time watching dowpro replays and not enough time playing 1.3 really showed... gave me a good kicking, refreshing :lol:

Anyway, I was SM and it was SM. I had the usual, 3 scout squads and two SM. The AI went Heavy Bolters... why? I'm hardly going to mass scouts, more likely mass marines. Now valuable plasma and missile slots have been wasted. Now, if I switch to scout plasma then maybe you've got a reason for HBs, but that's about the only time.

It also built four power gens but never got beyond tier 1. Why did it feel the need for such a power income? It hadn't maxed its squads so I'm sure the req could have been better spent.

#2 Flenser

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Posted 13 August 2005 - 09:41 PM

Anyway, I was SM and it was SM.  I had the usual, 3 scout squads and two SM.  The AI went Heavy Bolters... why?  I'm hardly going to mass scouts, more likely mass marines.  Now valuable plasma and missile slots have been wasted.  Now, if I switch to scout plasma then maybe you've got a reason for HBs, but that's about the only time.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

DoBestUpgrade() does not consider the possibility that the best upgrade might be something the AI cannot build as yet, but will be able to build soon. The AI just upgrades as and when it can with whatever it has at the time. Should SM upgrade at Tier 1 or wait for Tier 2? It is possible to generalize about this in a way that the AI can follow?

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Edited by Flenser, 13 August 2005 - 09:42 PM.


#3 Excedrin

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Posted 13 August 2005 - 10:02 PM

If it can take the opponents race and unit mix into account, it should probably build HB vs Eldar or against Ork that has lots of shootas and no nob leaders. In both cases, it's probably OK to simply ignore HB and wait for plasma.

#4 Quitch

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Posted 13 August 2005 - 10:54 PM

The AI needs to be able to anticipate when selecting upgrades. FoF renders HBs useless, as does the disruption of the Farseer. The Ork player simply needs to upgrade to Nob Leaders and it's all over for anyone using HBs.

I would consider scratching it from the upgrade list.

#5 Markoso

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Posted 14 August 2005 - 01:49 AM

I'll have to agree with Quitch, HB's are largely, largely useless.

#6 Flenser

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Posted 14 August 2005 - 07:03 AM

I'll have to agree with Quitch, HB's are largely, largely useless.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Should SM get some flamers early game or should it wait in every case for missile/ plasma to become available?

We can probably force it to get flamers in preference to HB if we need to.

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#7 Quitch

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Posted 14 August 2005 - 08:53 AM

Go for numbers, and if you're going for Plasma then bypass the tacs entirely and go for mass scout plasma (or at least focus on putting scouts on the field). It's far more effective.

Flamers can be handy for controlling mass CSM or SM, they're far more effective at breaking them than snipers IMO since they keep them broken. Snipers work better against Eldar and Orks (you get off the shots, dance to avoid and stop just long enough to setup and get off another volley... can the AI recognise when a reload period is done?).

It's rarely worth going weapon upgrades until tier 2. Until then you're generally increasing squad size and reinforcing losses. If I was feeling overwhemled I might go early flamers, but generally you're better off just getting more walking HPs with guns.

Edited by Quitch, 14 August 2005 - 08:54 AM.


#8 LarkinVB

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Posted 14 August 2005 - 09:29 AM

We can probably force it to get flamers in preference to HB if we need to.


We can ? How do we do this ? Faking enemies ?

#9 LarkinVB

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Posted 14 August 2005 - 09:33 AM

I'll have to agree with Quitch, HB's are largely, largely useless.


The AI does need HB against DR. As of now two squads meet and start firing away. Marines without HB wouldn't stand any chance against DR. There is no "run away while DR are near" code yet. As long as the AI isn't trained to counter DR, HB should stay IMO.

#10 Flenser

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Posted 14 August 2005 - 05:50 PM

We can ? How do we do this ? Faking enemies ?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Pick a class that flamers are more effective against than HB, instead of allowing the AI to choose the enemy's preferred class.

can the AI recognise when a reload period is done?

I don't think so. I do not think the AI even knows when its troops are firing (grenades are a different matter).

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#11 Excedrin

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Posted 15 August 2005 - 07:02 AM

Flamers are useful in certain specific situations. For example, in a SM mirror, if you teched (gen and armory) and your opponent has mass marines, then they're useful only if you have more squads or if your opponent lacks skill and doesn't tie them in CC.

Probably better to skip flamers.

I think HB are pretty good vs reapers, but it's difficult to use them. Snipers and plasma are better against reapers. The snipers should be out front just far enough so they see the reapers, then if the eldar chases or jumps WS in, the plasma marines standing behind the scouts tear them up.

For snipers, the AI can maybe move into range, wait for setup time (1.5 seconds afaik) plus 1 second to fire, then retreat and come back after 12 seconds (I think that's the sniper reload time).

Edited by Excedrin, 15 August 2005 - 07:04 AM.


#12 Quitch

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Posted 15 August 2005 - 06:01 PM

You don't need more squads, in fact that's half their use. You can equal the enemy in numbers, but by breaking them it's as though you outnumber them since their accuracy is a measly 10% of yours, same in CC.

You can get 4 HB Vs. Reapers per SM squad, while they can have dozens of Reapers. The Reapers win. If the Farseer charges your line of HBs then they won't even be firing for more than a second anyway.

The only counter to Reapers that the SM have is WoTE.

#13 Excedrin

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Posted 30 August 2005 - 07:05 PM

CC scouts and vanilla marines work pretty well until the Eldar achieves critical mass. Scouts in general kill reapers effectively, too bad guardians kill scouts effectively. ASM and speeders also counter reapers. Going machine pit is out of style, but it's still viable to go whirlwind, speeders and plasma marines against Eldar.

Edited by Excedrin, 30 August 2005 - 07:08 PM.


#14 oozish

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Posted 31 August 2005 - 02:57 AM

I guess maybe I'm not getting it but you would ALWAYS have a FC tieing up the enemy in cc while the HB's blast away from range. You would NEVER have a squad of HB's by itself, at the worst with another squad to cc while that squad stays at range, then runs away and switches positions with the squad that was range (becoming range and the next squad becomes cc)....retreating to a fortified LP or something.

All this talk about HB's makes it seem like your just pitting squads against squads and that's almost never the way it would be with a FC nearby...or better yet a 3 to 1 ratio of ranged tac marines to ASM's for cc (which, with eldar, will always break them and make them run to get to range). My point is, some HB's is fine early on, but lean heavy toward plasma ASAP. HB is still effective because it will be a ranged attack on units that aren't focusing on you. If the units can focus on you, retreat...because HB or no, you're as good as dead vs. most eldar units.

RE: speeders....those die so fast under Eldar fire it's not even funny. Speeders are useless unless used as a hit an run opposite the big army (to take out LP/gen's whatever). They require too much microing' and just aren't worth it in my opinion. Sometimes I make one though, just because I like the unit's sound effects and movement confirmations. :blush:

The secret to wins over Eldar is the plasma and my new tactic of going with apoc's before machine pit to attach to squads; along with bionics...add the plasma, commander upgrades, and WOTE/Librarian and you don't even really need vehicles.

Edited by oozish, 31 August 2005 - 03:02 AM.


#15 Excedrin

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Posted 31 August 2005 - 07:44 AM

http://dow.lerp.com/...0831.004425.rec

Ork vs SM on Fallen City, the AI was set to harder.

http://dow.lerp.com/...0831.002456.rec

Ork vs SM on MoM, also set to harder. In this game, I squig rush :lol: while the SM makes heavy bolters.

Edited by Excedrin, 31 August 2005 - 07:45 AM.


#16 LarkinVB

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Posted 31 August 2005 - 08:29 AM

Can someone sum this threads content and what it has to do with AI mod ?

#17 Excedrin

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Posted 31 August 2005 - 08:45 AM

The AI should base which heavy weapons it gets on the tech that's available to its opponent.

Regarding heavy bolters, there's basically no place for them.

Even against Eldar it's probably better to go snipers and plasma than HB.

#18 thudo

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Posted 31 August 2005 - 05:44 PM

The AI chooses its weapon systems based in the unitstats.ai on what is effective against the 11 different classes. AI chooses its weapon upgrades based on YOUR favourite class (you as the enemy). This can be tweaked so HeavyBolters favour something else less useful (ie. low infantry classes) while Plasma could be favoured for Higher Infantry and Monsters. Simple to do. Worth a test.
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#19 LarkinVB

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Posted 31 August 2005 - 06:30 PM

But HB already DO favor less usefull classes. They are selected cause plasma can't be choosen at tier1. We have to disallow upgrades in tier1 for marines and must fast tech to plasma. I already added code which will set AI enemy class to nothing lower than infantry_heavy for marines so they don't choose HB if scouts are the enemies primary class.

Let's wait for 1.4/WA and its changes in balance. Perhpas we must fast tech to HB then :-) ?

#20 oozish

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Posted 01 September 2005 - 02:32 AM

Well, in summary, I generally just don't agree with the main line of thought of this thread...I think HB work just fine early in game, and especially well vs. orks...so to say they are worthless I just don't get. Of course, seeing how excedrin maxes his squads, I can see where he's coming from. I keep small squads though, so use the HB's early game.

I guess alot of this is dependent on play style? whatever...



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