Heavy Bolters
#1
Posted 13 August 2005 - 09:13 PM
Anyway, I was SM and it was SM. I had the usual, 3 scout squads and two SM. The AI went Heavy Bolters... why? I'm hardly going to mass scouts, more likely mass marines. Now valuable plasma and missile slots have been wasted. Now, if I switch to scout plasma then maybe you've got a reason for HBs, but that's about the only time.
It also built four power gens but never got beyond tier 1. Why did it feel the need for such a power income? It hadn't maxed its squads so I'm sure the req could have been better spent.
#2
Posted 13 August 2005 - 09:41 PM
DoBestUpgrade() does not consider the possibility that the best upgrade might be something the AI cannot build as yet, but will be able to build soon. The AI just upgrades as and when it can with whatever it has at the time. Should SM upgrade at Tier 1 or wait for Tier 2? It is possible to generalize about this in a way that the AI can follow?Anyway, I was SM and it was SM. I had the usual, 3 scout squads and two SM. The AI went Heavy Bolters... why? I'm hardly going to mass scouts, more likely mass marines. Now valuable plasma and missile slots have been wasted. Now, if I switch to scout plasma then maybe you've got a reason for HBs, but that's about the only time.
Flenser
Edited by Flenser, 13 August 2005 - 09:42 PM.
#4
Posted 13 August 2005 - 10:54 PM
I would consider scratching it from the upgrade list.
#6
Posted 14 August 2005 - 07:03 AM
Should SM get some flamers early game or should it wait in every case for missile/ plasma to become available?I'll have to agree with Quitch, HB's are largely, largely useless.
We can probably force it to get flamers in preference to HB if we need to.
Flenser
#7
Posted 14 August 2005 - 08:53 AM
Flamers can be handy for controlling mass CSM or SM, they're far more effective at breaking them than snipers IMO since they keep them broken. Snipers work better against Eldar and Orks (you get off the shots, dance to avoid and stop just long enough to setup and get off another volley... can the AI recognise when a reload period is done?).
It's rarely worth going weapon upgrades until tier 2. Until then you're generally increasing squad size and reinforcing losses. If I was feeling overwhemled I might go early flamers, but generally you're better off just getting more walking HPs with guns.
Edited by Quitch, 14 August 2005 - 08:54 AM.
#9
Posted 14 August 2005 - 09:33 AM
I'll have to agree with Quitch, HB's are largely, largely useless.
The AI does need HB against DR. As of now two squads meet and start firing away. Marines without HB wouldn't stand any chance against DR. There is no "run away while DR are near" code yet. As long as the AI isn't trained to counter DR, HB should stay IMO.
#10
Posted 14 August 2005 - 05:50 PM
Pick a class that flamers are more effective against than HB, instead of allowing the AI to choose the enemy's preferred class.We can ? How do we do this ? Faking enemies ?
I don't think so. I do not think the AI even knows when its troops are firing (grenades are a different matter).can the AI recognise when a reload period is done?
Flenser
#11
Posted 15 August 2005 - 07:02 AM
Probably better to skip flamers.
I think HB are pretty good vs reapers, but it's difficult to use them. Snipers and plasma are better against reapers. The snipers should be out front just far enough so they see the reapers, then if the eldar chases or jumps WS in, the plasma marines standing behind the scouts tear them up.
For snipers, the AI can maybe move into range, wait for setup time (1.5 seconds afaik) plus 1 second to fire, then retreat and come back after 12 seconds (I think that's the sniper reload time).
Edited by Excedrin, 15 August 2005 - 07:04 AM.
#12
Posted 15 August 2005 - 06:01 PM
You can get 4 HB Vs. Reapers per SM squad, while they can have dozens of Reapers. The Reapers win. If the Farseer charges your line of HBs then they won't even be firing for more than a second anyway.
The only counter to Reapers that the SM have is WoTE.
#13
Posted 30 August 2005 - 07:05 PM
Edited by Excedrin, 30 August 2005 - 07:08 PM.
#14
Posted 31 August 2005 - 02:57 AM
All this talk about HB's makes it seem like your just pitting squads against squads and that's almost never the way it would be with a FC nearby...or better yet a 3 to 1 ratio of ranged tac marines to ASM's for cc (which, with eldar, will always break them and make them run to get to range). My point is, some HB's is fine early on, but lean heavy toward plasma ASAP. HB is still effective because it will be a ranged attack on units that aren't focusing on you. If the units can focus on you, retreat...because HB or no, you're as good as dead vs. most eldar units.
RE: speeders....those die so fast under Eldar fire it's not even funny. Speeders are useless unless used as a hit an run opposite the big army (to take out LP/gen's whatever). They require too much microing' and just aren't worth it in my opinion. Sometimes I make one though, just because I like the unit's sound effects and movement confirmations.
The secret to wins over Eldar is the plasma and my new tactic of going with apoc's before machine pit to attach to squads; along with bionics...add the plasma, commander upgrades, and WOTE/Librarian and you don't even really need vehicles.
Edited by oozish, 31 August 2005 - 03:02 AM.
#15
Posted 31 August 2005 - 07:44 AM
Ork vs SM on Fallen City, the AI was set to harder.
http://dow.lerp.com/...0831.002456.rec
Ork vs SM on MoM, also set to harder. In this game, I squig rush while the SM makes heavy bolters.
Edited by Excedrin, 31 August 2005 - 07:45 AM.
#18
Posted 31 August 2005 - 05:44 PM
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#19
Posted 31 August 2005 - 06:30 PM
Let's wait for 1.4/WA and its changes in balance. Perhpas we must fast tech to HB then :-) ?
#20
Posted 01 September 2005 - 02:32 AM
I guess alot of this is dependent on play style? whatever...
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