14 replies to this topic

[duke_Qa]

belief is a topic that we've been around a few times through religion-relevant topics. but what exactly is belief? is it a remainer from the tribal time when we needed to have faith in each other to survive, and a way of getting away from awkward questions. is it a defence mechanism that helped man in its early stage from becoming extinct through wondering how things worked? by saying, the rock will fall when i drop it, and thats how it will be for as long as we live. did they stop wondering about the falling rock and got out of its shadow before they got squashed of it?

we know that belief can be manipulated into a powerful tool. the catolics were very good at using religion to get money and power in the medieval times. And alot of fundamentalists and radicals these days are using the backdoor of belief to get people to blow themselves up and fight for a cause which religion never was supposed to be used for. blowing yourself up believing that you will go to heaven is not belief in religion, its belief in the silver tongue of a guy who had the authority to make you believe that was what god wanted you to do.



but what would happen if we removed belief from our consciousness? would mankind be able to live without belief? to remove the parts that need to have a fictional anchor like the universe was made in 7 days, and mankind started up with adam and eve. would we not remove the same parts that allows us to focus on a mission or an objective. how would we fight a war if we couldnt believe it could be won? how could we get a raise if we don't have faith enough in ourselves to do a good job?

the problem is probably in the definiton of belief. if the brain was programmed to only believe in things that are truly proved through vigorous testing and experiments, then we would instantly turn into quite a paranoid bunch. how could we be sure that atoms exists, since we can't see them. and if we can't believe in atoms, then what about alot of the other laws of physics? out the window they would go. how can we believe in the goodness of man if we have proof that man is not purely good.

belief is a double edge sword. if we didnt have faith, we wouldnt be conscious i believe. and with faith, the people at the top of the pyramid has a good way of getting control of the crowd. who actucally believes that mankind will live in a happy democracy in the future? its our belief hiding the truth

we would most likely go back to a sort of world where the pure essence of mankind comes through. being an organic primitive mass that fights for its survival, one can't expect every man to have power. it would be for the ones who are strong enough to climb the pyramid, and for their descendants to rule the mob who has not been able to climb up, mostly because their belief has been twisted into a opinion where the high should stay high, and the low are where they are supposed to be.


mankind is most likely at a peak now, where 10% of the population has a small chance of becoming something great, and the 90% of the rest is just being left out in the cold. where they're trying to get whatever they can out of the 10% they got of the world resources that they have access to.

is it possible to become completely separated from belief? most likely not. it would probably cause us to great stress, our consciousness would implode because of all the stuff that we have done to improve our life as individuals, but not bothered about those who are not close to us. belief can be so many things. a filter to make us live our lives in peace is the biggest one. what would happen if we took this filter out of belief? would we evolve as a race? or would we die trying?

[anonymous]

Belief is thought until validated with proof, then it becomes powerful.
Believing something to be true is far less powerful than knowing something is true.
The essence of belief is in all actuality an imanginative vision yet to be realized.
Belief can be manifested into something real even if it is not validated.
Take the guys controlling the suicide bombers for instance.
They make them believe they will sit next to allah once it is said and done.
This is just an example of belief manifesting itself in reality with no validation.
Belief without validation is just an imaginative thought that does not become truly powerful until it is "KNOWN" to be true.
It is a by product of the human condition, it is a natural occurence of our species we are dreamers therefore we will create. If a belief is not validated it can not gain the Collective Worlds Accepatance As Truth. It will live on the fringes of reality or myth until proven.
Belief is intricately woven into the fabric of thought and not just in humans.
Take a dog for instance jumping onto a couch, it is the "belief" that he can make it onto the couch by taking the ACTION of actually jumping to make it.
It is the first building block of action, without thought there can be no action.

IMHO

[Nirvus System]

Belief is thought until validated with proof, then it becomes powerful.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Belief is thought _________ until validated with proof? And how does it become powerful?

Believing something to be true is far less powerful than knowing something is true.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

'Belief' and 'knowing' are not opposing ideas. You know and believe in something at the same time.

The essence of belief is in all actuality an imanginative vision yet to be realized.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

What about it needs to be realized? The idea has already been realized.

Belief can be manifested into something real even if it is not validated.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

You just finished saying that belief is something that has yet to be realized. Look at the root of that word - "REAL"ilize. Also, down the page, you also say that 'belief' without validation is just an 'imaginative thought' which appearently is the 'essence of belief'

Take the guys controlling the suicide bombers for instance.
They make them believe they will sit next to allah once it is said and done.
This is just an example of belief manifesting itself in reality with no validation.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Well, the belief really didn't 'manifest' into anything. But either way, you said that it can't be real unless it has validation. But now it can. Really, why isn't sitting beside Allah a validation for their beliefs? They have a belief, and they gave a reason for it. You haven't made it clear which belief you are talking about either - the belief in their actions or their belief in their religion.

Belief without validation is just an imaginative thought that does not become truly powerful until it is "KNOWN" to be true.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I've already made reference to this point.

It is a by product of the human condition, it is a natural occurence of our species we are dreamers therefore we will create. If a belief is not validated it can not gain the Collective Worlds Accepatance As Truth. It will live on the fringes of reality or myth until proven.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

What human conditioning - you've made no previous reference. And then you call it a 'natural occurance' - which is it really? Also, how do you plan on validating a belief around the world? What about the 'suicide bombers'? They haven't been 'validated' but they are a very real thing. What they are fighting for is also a very real thing - but try telling the American's that. Both sides are fighting for a belief that is real to them. There is nothing that is 'unreal' about a belief.

Belief is intricately woven into the fabric of thought and not just in humans.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I can agree with the first part - yes...we do believe. But now, what does animals have to do with anything?

Take a dog for instance jumping onto a couch, it is the "belief" that he can make it onto the couch by taking the ACTION of actually jumping to make it.

It is the first building block of action, without thought there can be no action.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

The whole dog analogy really doesn't make any sense. You seem to be using belief in many different contexts and I am unclear to which one you believe to be true yourself.

Also, why are you talking about action. Action, while it may have to do with belief, is totally unreleated and draws no conclusion to you post.

As a matter of fact, you have drawn no conclusions in your arguements. They are mearly opinions or what is know as personal beliefs. There is no supporting evidence that any assumptions about the human you may have are true - this is purly unsupported theory - perhaps otherwise known as 'unvalidated beliefs'

Edited by Nirvus System, 25 August 2005 - 02:33 AM.

[Ex-pats]

Take a dog for instance jumping onto a couch, it is the "belief" that he can make it onto the couch by taking the ACTION of actually jumping to make it.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Take your mother for instance, jumping onto my couch. It is her belief that she's going to get laid. From her point of view, it's a forgone conclusion. From my point of view however, it's her belief. See how that works?

IMHO

[Nirvus System]

That arguement is not a fallacy - that is by belief, but to anonymous that should be a forgone conclusion.

[anonymous]

won't even dignify the last two posts with a full response but i will say this:

this your quote nirvus system: LOL

You seem to be using belief in many different contexts and I am unclear to which one you believe to be true yourself.

DUH!

What do you think there is only one Context to belief!!!!!!
What does my all emcompassing uderstanding of belief have to do with anything?
I merely stated that there are many many different variations to which belief can be placed in.

Look DEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEP into my posts and you will see that there are a myriad of questions that need to be asked in order to understand the one.

Within every question there are sub-questions that need to be asked in order to fully understand the scope and breadth of the original question.


You must answer the sub-questions in order to begin to answer the Main question!

[Ash]

Why not just post the standpoint that you believe to be true? This could be a point that many of us find confusing...you contradict yourself on a few occasions.

Belief is not the same as faith. Faith is the idea that you 'know' something is true without having seen it yourself. Belief is merely thinking something is true.

The confusing bit starts when people say they 'believe in' God. They don't just think it's true. They 'know' it's true without having seen it. But if you haven't seen it, how do you 'know' it's true? You only think it is. Ergo, it IS only belief.

See? Confusing. Therefore one has to say faith is being convinced beyond reasonable doubt, even without the evidence and tangible proof. Belief can therefore be faith, but it's less ingrained in one's mind, and a belief can easily be swayed by a more convincing counterargument, or by simply being proved the fuck wrong!

To put it more simply: If you have faith in it, you trust it solidly. Those of a religious faith put trust in the religion that it will give them salvation or bring them happiness.
Those that just believe in God don't necessarily care either way. They just reckon he exists.

[duke_Qa]

To put it more simply: If you have faith in it, you trust it solidly. Those of a religious faith put trust in the religion that it will give them salvation or bring them happiness.
Those that just believe in God don't necessarily care either way. They just reckon he exists.

so basically, if you got faith in religion, you are repenting yourself from all doubt. You will not just believe it to be true, but you consider it the only truth out there. i think "ignorance is bliss" is the best way of putting it then, which i can understand at a certain point. when we give up doubting for a belief that the universe was done by one deity, thats the moment when we stop using our intellect.


being intellectual is something that i can understand alot of people wouldnt manage to live with. always doubting and scrutinizing the world if there seems to be something wrong, seeking an answer that would please our minds. i bet that if you look around yourself, you can find some people who there is very little doubt about are incredible smart, but they are somehow managing to ruin their lives. is this because they are so intellectual that they are getting mental problems with how to live in such a world? not all drug-abusers are idiots, there is alot of intelligent people who use drugs not to get away from a terrible home or a bad childhood. But as a way to get away from the world, as all they see is bad. and religion is not an option for them to close their eyes with, because its just another evil in the world.


the reason alot of people convert into religion is that they have problems with belief, either one way or the other.
- Some people can get into religion if they think the world is cruel, and thus think that its all a part of gods plan, to test man with such troubles. To get the weight of guilt for being humans off their shoulders, by saying "god made it this way, and god works in mysterious ways. this is not my or any other man's fault, its just the way things have been planned"[also consider how alot of the bible goes on about jesus dying for all sins of mankind. ]
- Some people just do it because they have not the brainpower to comprehend anything else. it just gets too big for them.
- Some people grows up in heavily religious families. this usually has two outcomes, either they revolt against the parenting generation and goes away from religion altogether, or they are so affected by the teachings from childhood that they grow into this hood of belief, and have small chances of getting out of it.
- and alot of other reasons.


so what is the healthiest type of belief?
- the intellectual belief that everything in the universe has a logical reason, and that human culture and actions are only affected by the instincts and malice of mankind, causing great distress to those who doesnt have the composure to live in such a world?
- Or the religious belief that everything is created by god and that humans are children of god, thus was meant to do everything that they do and theres nothing to do about it?

[MSpencer]

I believe it is an obligation to believe absolutely nothing but to have an open mind to those who do believe in something. You cannot say "I believe in God because He/She exists", because in itself it is a contradiction. Religion is nothing more than faith made up by people afraid of the unknown, and by people seeking legitimate power from a higher authority. Whether or not one is right is still to be determined by crackpot scientists all around the world.
We are all obligated to question our faith, beliefs, and thoughts, and it is our right and our duty to make sure that we actually believe in what we put our faith in.

[Allied General]

belief is faith in the unknown and realising your aren't omnipotent and all important, its a move away from idolism, screw everyone 1st type ideology.

Belief is good but some belief is wrong like discrimination, jihad, etc.

Intelligence, is merely what is accepted by 2day's society.

Examples

1) ooh the earth is square
2) You can't catch vcjd from infected animal meat
3) Nukes are a global deterrent and absolutly nessecary and yay for nuclear power its super clean

So to be honest why put faith in intelligence which already has proof of being inperfect?

Why trust an large fleshy mass to explain how the universe and why life exists?

Scientists not having belief allows them to commit murder in the "name" of science, so plz don't tell me thats good belief.

Everyone always talk about how religions caused great wars and suffering but last time i checked it was bullets, explosives and a terrible flash of light on August 5 1945, all created in the name of "science"

I would rather not trust my ideals and priniciples on such flawed present day, earthly, eventually decaying principles.

In how many years, our generation will be forgotten like the ancient civilisations of past age.

Edited by Allied General, 30 August 2005 - 07:15 PM.

[duke_Qa]

1. Scientists not having belief allows them to commit murder in the "name" of science, so plz don't tell me thats good belief.

2. Everyone always talk about how religions caused great wars and suffering but last time i checked it was bullets, explosives and a terrible flash of light on August 5 1945, all created in the name of "science"

3. I would rather not trust my ideals and priniciples on such flawed present day, earthly, eventually decaying principles.

4. In how many years, our generation will be forgotten like the ancient civilisations of past age.

1. belief is naturally affected by society, as it always has been. we should consider ourselves blessed that society isnt as rigid where we live on how we live our lives and what kind of philosofy we follow. and society is naturally a crude and malevolent creature, because its still affected by the basic instincts in us.

scientists believe that if a rat(or 20) has to die so that a cure can let thousands of humans may live, they wouldnt even think twice about cutting those rats up. we humans prioritize ourselves, and if we can find other organisms to help ourselves, we are happy to use them. its nothing new that we are using other animals to help ourselves, cows, sheep, chickens, etc etc.has been around for ages.

Although things that doesnt help mankind directly, like make-up experiments and the likes, is not something one should not be doing. but i believe that saying no to animal experiments is a semi-hypocritical opinion, because mankind has been using other animals to help us in our daily lives since the dawn of time more or less.

2. guns don't kill people, people do. guns are not evil, but they are a tool for evil, and they encourage evil, because they are more powerful than our mitts. war demands powerful tools, and war reminds the warmongers who is the masters of making powerful weapons, which are the scientists. there is always a flow of new technology during times of conventional warfare and conflicts, because new scenarios demands new methods to get the edge on the enemy. its the way of humanity. conflict causes evolution so that we are able to survive.

3. which is a healthy opinion, but whats more important, don't trust the opinions that you are taught when you grow up. most of our own opinions are just someone else's. make your own opinion and don't go with the flow.



4.System Of A Down says it very well in one of their later songs

Sad statue

Conquest to the lover,
And your love to the fire,
Permanence unfolding in the absolute.

Forgivness is
The ultimate sacrifice.
Eloquence belongs,
To the conqueror.

The pictures of time and space are rearranged,
In this little piece of typical tragedy.

Justified Candy!
Brandy for the nerves,
Eloquence belongs,
To the conqueror.

You and me will all go down in history,
With a sad Statue of Liberty,
And a Generation that didn't agree.

You and me will all go down in history,
With a sad Statue of Liberty,
And a Generation that didn't agree.

Edited by duke_Qa, 30 August 2005 - 09:57 PM.

[Allied General]

I'm fortunate to live a free society with a free flow of information but belief is a set of principles which do not change or decay over time. The words may be translated but the message is sound.

Science has a way of answering it wrongs, but religion if your an true and honest belief delivers an certain truth in a world of doubt.

To a believer it doesn't matter if you doubt them or not, cos in the end its nothing to do with other people, its an personal one on one existant.

I believe in guidance, the human race still acts like a immature child i.e. wanting things, so i believe there is a creator with an greater understanding.

Guns don't kill people, people do.

Well who ordered the creation of the a-bomb, who made it, who droped it, that evil was because of greed.

USA wanted a monolopy of nuclear weapons and instead we have a nuclear arms race which may never end.

Personally i think thats our greatest sin on this planet, for taking away hundreds of thousands of lives indiscriminatly even passing on that curse to the children, we just prove to ourselfs we can become even more animal like then own cave man ancestors.

Yes I am talking about the a-bombs and how i wish in a society we could eradicate them all.

Edited by Allied General, 31 August 2005 - 12:07 PM.

[duke_Qa]

antagonizing the bomb and the bomb alone as one of the greatest evils that mankind ever created is a bit of a narrow-minded approach on us humans. if all the nuclear bombs in the world suddenly dissapeared leaving only a note which says "you've been very naughty making such things, and i won't have any part of it...", governments would firstly keep it secret for such a long time that people might imagine them to still be around. And if we still had the ability to create bombs, it would take a week and every nation would basically be back in action on the arms race.

if you think that if things would be better if they went away and never returned, thats where conventional warfare comes into the picture. nations unafraid of retaliation from nuclear countries would be all over each other in no time, trying to get natural resources and other supplies from each other, just like the good old days. the us wouldnt be able to MOAB-bomb them all.

besides, we got such cute little trinkets that makes up the rest of the warfare ABC; biological and chemical. these weapons are just as dangerous as a relatively small nuclear bomb, and i consider such weapons much more evil than a nuclear bomb. sure you get fallout and such things from a nuclear bomb, but chemicals and viruses are much more lethal in smaller dosages than nuclear radiation.

ever thought what could happen if someone had dropped off a extremely hazardous virus in a international airport, one with a incubation time of something between 2-5 days before it basically kills anyone infected? it would most likely kill much more people than any nuke would be able to do in one go, and it would have great chances in killing all humans if it was spread well enough.

anyway, nuclear bombs are still not the greatest evil around. i bet there was a ton of scientific archievements as they invented the bomb. it might not have been enough to save as many as the bomb has killed, but sometimes pacific science wins, sometimes aggressive science wins.

was it greed who made the bomb, or was it the will for man to have a weapon ultimately so powerful that it could control the world just by having it?

[Allied General]

greed and power and try telling that to hiroshima victims.

Do u know the effects of the bomb?

It carbonises you and thats if you are lucky.

Otherwise it just burns away all your flesh leaving u as a bleedy lump of mess.

It leaves an unquencable thirst and your skin feels like it is on fire.

Finally depressurisation occurs and your eye balls pop out and so do your intestines and you do a horrible death.

And if u survive? The radiation will slowly kill you off and your future generations.

Its an curse on future generations, bullets thankfully just kill you and u don't have to worry about unborn children or ancestors, but nukes they fuck up countless number of lives.

The whole nuke is an deterrent is utter bullshit today, we have terrorists, they don't care about land and resources, we have god knows how many secretive hermit like states with stockpiles of weapons and with the usa going gun happy on any nation i wouldn't bet on an all out war.

There will always be "war" there is unspoken killings and genocide in africa where warlords fight for little scraps of land.

Biological and Chemical last time i checked were FORBIDDEN by the Geneva convention but thanks again for highlighting enough way in which the human race has created another timebomb to its own destruction.

However that takes days, even weeks to kill off everyone.

Nuclear weapons will eradicate 99% of life on this planet once nuclear winter kicks in. An few minutes is all that is needed to prepare silos for launch.